News + Ideas

MGAC Inner Voices: Episode 27


MGAC Inner Voices is an interview format podcast where a diverse mix of employees are interviewed to share their perspective on challenges they have faced in the A/E/C industry as a result of their identity—including race, ethnicity, religion, age, gender, sexuality, ability, etc. By discussing the experiences of our staff, our hope is that their stories will have newfound and powerful resonance with the audience—both to comfort others in similar situations and to encourage those in positions of power to bring about positive, actionable changes to workplace environments for all A/E/C professionals, regardless of their identity.

Bryan Gamez (MGAC Project Manager, Los Angeles) talks with Jai Beyer (MGAC Project Manager, Brighton) about the state of the industry for women in the UK, the importance of reflecting and responding to challenging situations, and the lessons she learned from her mother.


Bryan: Hey, everyone, and welcome to "MGAC Inner Voices," a podcast digging into the issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the architecture, engineering, and construction industry. As always, I want to preface this podcast by letting you know that we're not experts in all things diversity, equity, and inclusion. We're here to share our stories and talk about how we can have better outcomes for everyone in the A/E/C industry and beyond. I'm your podcast host, I'm Bryan Gamez. I'm a project manager at MGAC, working and living in Los Angeles, California. And today we're talking to my friend Jai Beyer in the UK from our Brighton office, and so I'm gonna allow Jai to introduce themselves.

Jai: Hi, Bryan. Thank you for having me today. It's really exciting to be on here. I joined MGAC recently as a project manager. As you said, I work in the Brighton office, which is in the southeast of the UK down by the seaside. Not quite as sunny as Los Angeles, but it is a great place to be. I joined MGAC in July in 2023. And before that, I was working as a chartered building surveyor in a local surveying firm.

I started in industry in 2015. I was a mature student studying at the University of Brighton, and I worked for a different local surveying firm throughout my degree. I was doing quite a lot of disabled facility grant work, so that was nice because that was rewarding. And it was small projects, but I got to do all different elements of the project, including design and specification and contract admin.

And then in my placement year, I worked for a main contractor, and I was working on site and I continued to work for them throughout my third year. And then towards the end of my third year, that's where I got a job with the civilian practice who I was with for just over four and a half years.

Bryan: And then, we found you here at MGAC at this present time with me. I'm really happy to have you on this podcast. I thought that we had a really interesting conversation. Can you let our listeners...who do you represent in terms of a marginalized group?

Jai: So, I'm female. I identify as she/her, and I am also bisexual. However, as we were talking about before the podcast, that might be surprising to quite a lot of people because I'm married to a man, someone that I've been with for 10 years, and it hasn't felt like a topic I've felt comfortable covering with with people at work. As far as I know, there isn't anyone who is LGBTQ+ in either the Brighton or London office, so it just hasn't felt like a subject that I've felt comfortable sharing with people in the office so far. Maybe that is because there is underrepresentation and it's time that we change that.

Bryan: I wanna say I'm really thankful, and thank you for sharing that with me, and that you're comfortable with sharing that with me. I want you to know that visibility matters and that by sharing that you're allowing others to have insight into what it is to be a bisexual woman in this industry, so thank you so much, Jai. It's great that you're providing that visibility and that representation. And I know that we've talked about this a lot and we're about to go through and talk about your experiences in the A/E/C industry, but I hope that if anyone out there is listening, that it's okay to be who you are wherever you are. And so it doesn't have to be a major topic at all.

Jai: A hundred percent.

Bryan: Let's talk about your experiences. I know that we talked a little bit before about how you've experienced very heavy, dominant male personalities.

Jai: So, I think in the UK, traditionally, construction and property is a very male-dominated industry. Particularly it's male white-dominated industry. I don't know if you've heard the joke term, old, pale, and stale.

Bryan: No, I haven't. Old, pale, and stale?

Jai: Yeah, that's a term used over here because generally a lot of people in, like, senior leadership roles, and especially in building surveying, they tend to be older white men. So that's like an endearing term.

Bryan: Sounds familiar, Jai.

Jai: It's not meant to be offensive, it's an endearing term to present, like, how it comes across to people. We are trying to move away from that stereotype because also we don't want people to feel uncomfortable who are categorized that way. But because of privilege and the way people are seen in society, often you will find that it is males who are dominant in leadership roles. And as a female, sometimes you don't feel that there is someone there who can understand things from your point of view or support you to navigate situations effectively because they aren't able to take from sort of their own personal experiences.

Bryan: How has that affected you in the workplace, and have you ever felt uncomfortable?

Jai: I'm quite a robust personality, but it definitely has encouraged some level of imposter syndrome, as in, I don't feel like I fit in here. I don't feel like people are respecting me in the same way. For example, when I was building surveying as a lead designer on a project in the large round table meetings with the contractors and the quantity surveyors and the client, everyone in that room was male and generally quite a bit older than me. And people would often not actually direct their questions or queries to me when I was the right person to be answering those questions, and would throw it out to my superiors on the table. And often it wasn't redirected back to me when it should have been, and I felt like a good mentor should have realized what was happening in that situation and redirected it back to me as I was the best-placed person to answer the questions in that situation.

One of the things that I've learned is to reflect on situations after they've happened and speak to the people involved promptly afterwards so I can address a situation and say, "I feel like this is what happened in that moment and I didn't feel like you responded to it in a way that helped empower me."

Bryan: Were you able to have that conversation with your director afterwards?

Jai: I've had to have that conversation quite a few times. A lot of the time it's unconscious, so these are experienced people in the industry and they're obviously there trying to impress the client and also help the contractor. So, I'm not at the forefront of their mind at that time, which is completely understandable. We're all here to do a job. But the whole point of having diverse teams is that you can take from their experiences, you can take from their creativity, and you can improve the construction industry. And if I'm not being empowered to speak and to present my ideas, how are they going to make use of having a more diverse team?

Bryan: Did they handle it well?

Jai: I haven't had any female mentors and I haven't had any female line managers in any of the jobs that I've had. So, I'm quite good at communicating with my male counterparts. And one of the best bits of advice my mom ever gave me was learn how to manage your manager, and that is still something...

Bryan: Wow. I love that. I really do, Jai. You know, we've talked about imposter syndrome, but that's great a piece of advice. Talk a little bit more about that. Sorry. I was just like, wow, an aha moment.

Jai: Well, I've been brought up to take onboard feedback. I had a mom who empowered me, which is probably what led to me being in an industry like this and being quite such a strong character. Don't get me wrong, there would've been some high-intensity arguments back in the day, especially as a teenager, but I learned how to move away from a situation, reflect on it, understand what led me to feel a certain way, behave a certain way, and think of how to better deal with that and how if I'd changed my behavior or done something differently, the outcome might have been different.

My mum was really key in making me learn those behaviors and I have brought them forward into working in the construction industry. And personally, this might sound sexist in itself, I don't think it's something that men are always as natural at as women.

Bryan: I agree, yeah. I think women have a higher emotional EQ or have this awareness that they approach life with, right? And some men just need to understand that there are different personalities in that room, in that table, and there's not one way to respond to every situation. Having that awareness is really important. I'm curious, what was your mom's career?

Jai: She comes from an ex-military background. Her dad was in the military.

Bryan: Oh, interesting.

Jai: She was moved around a lot and went to a lot of different schools and fortunately was a product of quite a messy divorce, and then she ended up getting pregnant with me at 18 and had me at 19 years old. Then she had my younger brother at 21. And whilst we were younger, she studied psychology at the Open University and she got an award for her contribution and for her grades that she achieved, and then she's gone to work in the mental health and learning disability sector in housing support.

Bryan: That's amazing. So, she really does know what she's talking about then. I'm happy that you had such a great role model.

Jai: She's also very liberal and she's pansexual. She's also married to a man. But she brought me up to not have to identify as anything and be able to do and be whoever I wanted to be, and that has really helped with my confidence and also helped me to have a thick skin because I understand not everyone has had the upbringing and the support that I've had, and I have to be tolerant of that.

Bryan: That's true, honestly. Props to your mom.

Jai: Name's Roha. She's a legend.

Bryan: Having confidence is key in this industry and you exude that, Jai. And I hope that you know that what you're saying today will help any of our listeners know that their experiences have mattered and that they're able to be in these positions that you find yourself in, right? And you're only moving up as well.

Have you ever felt on these job sites that you've ever been tokenized by a man? I think we may have talked about this in our pre-interview. Do you think you had an experience with men swearing around you?

Jai: Oh, yeah. That is something that has happened throughout my entire career and continues to happen. I swear like an absolute trooper. I'll do my best not to swear on this podcast to make it PG for everyone, but, you know...

Bryan: Appreciate that.

Jai: ...that's part of my vocabulary. I like swearing. It's fun and it gets your emotions out. And generally, in my generation, most people swear anyway. And I make sure to do it when it is and isn't appropriate, but when I'm on-site particularly, or in meetings with large groups of men, they swear and then if I'm standing there, they turn to me and they apologize to me for swearing. So, in that moment, they have then made me feel isolated from everyone in that conversation, and they have highlighted that I am different. And that's not helpful or beneficial to any sense of imposter syndrome or feeling respected as an equal team member.

And I will always call it out and say, "Either don't swear because you don't think it's appropriate, or swear and then don't point me out in front of everyone else because I don't feel good about that. And actually, you don't know me and my identity, so why are you apologizing to me for something that you're not apologizing to any of the males about?" It just baffles me. It makes no sense.

Bryan: He's projecting something onto you, which is an insecurity that he has to deal with himself. Right. I'm happy that you even address it right then and there as well. You don't ever want to feel like you're on a job site and then be singled out in front of your team members.

Jai: Well, normally I address it with a few swear words myself. I do find that I approach a lot of situations with humor. I find it an easy mechanism to being able to address something there and then in the situation without me then attacking the other person, because I really, as an ambassador, as someone who wants to present females in the industry and what we can do, we don't wanna be seen as people who are just out there pushing our own agenda and making other people feel uncomfortable at doing so. I don't feel like that's beneficial to the cause. So I often use humor because I think that's personally an element of my personality in how I deal with things, but also, it feels less defensive and less like I'm trying to have an argument, but more just like open the dialogue of, like, "Hey, come on. Look at it this way."

Bryan: Do you think that you've ever had an experience where you've felt like the other person thought you were being defensive if you weren't using humor?

Jai: That's an interesting question. I think I use humor so much it's hard to draw on a scenario like that. I think maybe I wouldn't do it on-site, but definitely in the office, in networking events, or in situations like this. I will open the dialogue in a more serious way and challenge behaviors, but I try to do it in a way that it doesn't feel like a lecture. It feels more like if you were in my shoes, how would you feel? And try to make it more of a two-way conversation rather than, "I'm telling you this is how it is."

Bryan: And that's always a good approach. I think that always allows the dialogue between two people to be much more productive and efficient, especially when it comes to the workplace. And we touched upon how to manage your manager from your mom. Can you talk a little bit more about that? And what are some tips that your mom gave you? What are some challenges and some positives that you've found from that discovery, I guess?

Jai: I think being honest and always tackling the situation sooner rather than later is the best way to go about it. A good example is when I was working for a surveying firm, I was already going to be on-site to be doing a meeting, a progress meeting, and the client said that there was a leak on a different building on-site and it needed to be inspected. And I said, "Okay, great. I can go and do that." And they had a separate conversation with my line manager in which they said, "Oh, does somebody more experienced need to be looking at this leak instead?"
And my line manager didn't challenge that and didn't explain that I might be doing a certain type of work for that client, but I've also done investigative surveys, defect analysis on hotels with lots of different types of roofs investigating leak and damp, and instead just said, "Okay, I'll come and do that." So, my response was, "Okay, well, if you're going to do that, you can do my progress meeting on-site then, because there's absolutely no point the two of us being on-site at the same time. It doesn't make any sense us traveling there. If you don't want me to go and do that inspection, you can do both."

And they were obviously a bit surprised at that reaction, and then I explained, "Well, you've done the company a disservice there. You know that I'm completely capable of doing that. In that situation, why didn't you sell my skillset and why didn't you tell the client that I'm the best person to go and do that and you don't need to do that yourself? You know, that's not good leadership, and I'm sorry you've failed me in this situation."

Bryan: At the end of the day, the only person that's gonna look out for you is yourself. Right?

Jai: Yeah.

Bryan: And I'm so happy that you did this. What did he say?
Jai: Luckily, like I said, I've had a few male mentors, and every time I've always built quite strong relationships with the people that I work with, because I will always go for them for advice and help where I need it, and I'm always there to listen and to support. I know it is changes in behavior if someone's having a bad time, so I will address that with them. So, I generally have quite deep relationships with my mentors and the people that I work with because I'm a compassionate and caring person, and I give someone what I want back. So, when I then have difficult conversations with them, we're able to do that because we've already built that relationship.

So, he took it quite well. He went and did the progress meeting for me. And then when I next met with the client who also happened to be a female, I explained the situation to her. I explained how it made me feel and the other type of work that I've done, and she thanked me for explaining it to her and she said, "I didn't know that you were doing those other types of work. I thought you were just here doing this type of work that you do for us. Now that I know that, I wouldn't have even said something like that. I have every faith in you. You know, everything that you've ever done for me has been great, so just thank you for bringing this to my attention and we'll change things moving forward." And then...

Bryan: That's great. I love that.

Jai: ...I did start becoming the sole representative for that client whilst I was at the business. I ended up doing all of the work. I said, "You know what, let's change this. Shall I just take the lead because I've got the capacity?" And we did that and it worked much better. I think sometimes it's giving your managers the opportunity to let go, and you have to take the reins and show them, "I'm hungry and I'm willing, and I want to do this, and let me do it. And if I need help, I'll come to you." And I've done that in several situations and it's always worked because I'm not so pigheaded that I won't go and ask for help when I need it. I'm straight on the phone or I'm straight emailing when I need help because I want to do a good job and I'm diligent.

Bryan: Jai, you and I are very, very similar. I like that you have almost this fearless aspect to yourself, an element to yourself about not being scared to speak up. I think that I've met a lot of people that...and they're younger and they're sometimes a little bit less experienced. And especially if I have younger people within my team, don't worry about asking questions. Don't worry for standing up for yourself because that's gonna be a service to yourself and also to the client. You know what you're doing and trust yourself. I think that's the biggest thing, trusting yourself. And you exude that so incredibly well, Jai.

Jai: Thank you.

Bryan: It's great that you've been able to have these conversations. Props to you for having and holding your own, especially as we're progressing through this industry and making sure that this is a more equal and inclusive industry.

Jai: It's a bit like unconscious bias, isn't it? It's socialization. Men have been brought up to feel like they need to protect women. It's an outdated way of living. I'm not angry at my male counterparts, mentors, leaders because they've been brought up to behave in a certain way and they think they're just trying to do best by me. And they've been overprotective of me in the past, they've prevented me from dealing with challenges that I wanted to deal with myself. I need to be exposed to these challenges and I need to know how to deal with situations throughout my career, and I'll only grow and learn from them. And if they're worried about how it's going to affect me emotionally or mentally, they just need to make sure that they're there for me to talk to afterwards and not step in front of me and not allow me to have those opportunities and experiences.

Bryan: We're trying to identify strategies that will help propel this industry into a much more inclusive environment. And by just having these discussions, we're just opening up that dialogue, so no one's angry here. And I want people just to remember that, right? It's just a conversation.

Jai: Yeah. I mean, the way I look at it is that waves. I think men, in particular, that have been in the industry a long time are sort of moving with the current, they're not fighting it, but they are also just treading water because they're just trying to figure out what's going on and how these changes going to impact them.

But I think we have a huge issue with leadership training in this industry anyway. I think that a lot of people are incredible at their discipline and have worked really hard in their professional career, but a lot of people have become leaders because of their professional and discipline success, not because of their ability to manage people and manage situations. And I think that we lack leadership training in this industry.

Again, when I left the company that I was at previously, I felt that I was professionally gaslit because they were not happy about the fact that I was leaving the business. They had a progression plan for me. I knew that they valued and respected me, but I needed to move on for myself because I'd been feeling these feelings of imposter syndrome, feeling that would I feel as successful? Would I feel like I was smashing it at somewhere else like I was at this business? And I needed to go and move on for my own professional development and it wasn't to do with the business.

But I was taken into a meeting with two men at director level that sat either end of a table and they pretty much just played table tennis and firing questions at me as to why it wouldn't be a success in project management in a different role, and just came at me with all the negatives. And I just thought, "Wow, did these guys even think about how they were gonna approach this meeting with me?" Because they went about it totally the wrong way and it made me want to leave even more. But I actually had a lot of respect for these people and I had a really good time at the business and I didn't wanna leave on bad terms and I haven't. I still see people at the business now.

But I had a chat with my mom afterwards. I was pretty fuming about how the conversation went, especially as it went on for an hour, and I actually said, "I think we need to end this conversation here because I'm not really sure what you are trying to get out of it, but I don't think it's going anywhere positive for either of us." And I called my line manager the next day and I said, "I want to ask you how you think that conversation went yesterday." And they kind of mumbled something and then said, "It didn't go the way we intended to," and I was like, "No, it did not. That was a really bad situation and I really didn't feel like you planned that out."

And he said, "Yeah, I noticed your body language got quite defensive halfway through," and I said, "That's because I was defending myself." I felt like I was being attacked and I just wondered whether they would've approached the conversation in the same way with a male by saying, "Well, this could go wrong and that could go wrong. Are you not worried about that?" And they might have, but to me, it felt like they approached it in a certain way because I was a female and they were trying to tap into my fears and worries rather than telling me how much they valued and appreciated me and didn't want me to leave because they wanted to keep my skills within the business.

Bryan: Which is how they should have approached the situation.

Jai: Yeah. I spoke to both of them separately.

Bryan: Big learning lessons for them.

Jai: Yeah. I said, "Don't ever do that to anyone again," because some people might have gone home and cried after that. I was angry more than crying. But yeah, if you don't give these sorts of feedback to people, then it will continue these behaviors moving forward.
Bryan: I wanna pivot the conversation into discrimination. Have you ever felt like there was an experience where there was some sort of level of discrimination?

Jai: Yeah. The one that most stood up for me and upset me the most actually was we always used to do workload meetings to understand each other's capacity, and we would assign people jobs based upon their locality, their capacity, and sort of what they specialized, what they were good at. And this was for a [inaudible 00:25:18] survey, which is something I did a lot of, and it was local to me in the center of Brighton. And I got told that I wasn't going to be put on the job even though I had capacity because the client was misogynistic.

Bryan: Did they actually say that?

Jai: Yeah. To protect me, they decided that I wouldn't be put on the job. And at the time I was like, "That's off, but okay." And then took time to reflect and think it over, and then I called them up and said, "Actually, I feel really uncomfortable and disappointed that we're even going to take this job on. I am a technical member of the team. I'm the only member of the team at this point who is a female, and this is actual discrimination, and in order to keep this instruction, you are going along with that? You shouldn't accept jobs if a member of your team cannot go and conduct that survey purely based on discrimination." I understood it was for a diocese so you get a lot of different work and it was one particular person at one particular church underneath this diocese, but I think the point by the business should have still been made. I did end up doing the survey, but it was a really disappointing situation because I should not have been the one to have to highlight that that wasn't acceptable.

Bryan: It's so sad. I'm not sure if that's even the robust word here, but, like, it just feels like sometimes businesses push their morals aside and even ethics just for the bottom line. I think moving forward, I think people should really empower their employees, right? And if you have that skillset and you're able to do that, that's powerful, right? And I think that places shouldn't be leaning into misogynistic behavior or clients. Yeah. It might be one person, but I think that that's a discussion that needs to happen across the board.

Jai: Exactly. They needed to speak to somebody at a higher level within the diocese to explain why that wasn't acceptable. You know, it's about being an ally and they weren't being an ally in that situation. But interestingly, when I went for a main contractor, I would say that I felt subject to positive discrimination. So it's a difficult balance because, as you said about tokenizing, they kind of tokenized me as a female who was working on-site and training to being what you would call, like, a site manager, and they would take me out of my working day to constantly have photos taken. So constantly [crosstalk 00:28:08.789].

Bryan: Oh, God, Jai.

Jai: But you know what the problem is? It then had an effect on my working relationships with my male counterparts and the site team, and then it makes you question the validity of your own experience and why you are there because there's such a focus on getting women into the industry. And I do think it's cool that we have that drive to get women in there, but if it's made so blaringly obvious, it's then impacting your relationships with your male colleagues. That isn't positive and it also leads you to question yourself, "Am I here because I'm respected for being good at my job and knowledgeable, or am I here because I helped to meet a quota?" That's not a good feeling.

Bryan: And their image, yeah. And propel this idea that this is, you know, what their company's about. And it sounds like you were the only female I think at that point in that company, so it was definitely a positive discrimination.

Jai: They did get more females on board, so that's why I'm saying it's difficult balance because they set out to do something and what they did achieve was positive and women coming in in more senior levels than me in site management, but it did impact my experience there.

Bryan: But what they should have done is they should have included you in every step, asked you for your opinion, asked you, "Oh, what did you think of this?" And maybe made you part of that. If there was a campaign, ask how you would approach something rather than push it onto you. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that you were just there, forgive me, as a prop, right?

Jai: Yeah.

Bryan: You weren't being included. You were being just taken and implanted, right? That's how I see that situation. If you're involving someone, you ask for their opinion, you're asking for how they think this should be approached, right?

Jai: It doesn't help if it's constantly taking you away from your day job when you are desperately there trying to prove yourself and trying to prove you are equal and just the same as everyone else, but then you are being taken off to model PPE, you know. That goes against what you're trying to do and what you're trying to prove. And I can understand why my male colleagues would find that frustrating because they're working just as hard as me and they feel like they're being overlooked in a way. And then they feel like, "Oh, well, she's probably gonna be one that gets a promotion because they just want more females to be more visible." So it is definitely, I'm not saying wrong to do, but I think it needs to be approached more subtly.

Bryan: Yes. Agreed. Definitely agree with that. You know, I know we have a few minutes left here, and this has been such a very interesting conversation, Jai. It's interesting to, like, think about American culture and then British culture, right? I'm actually so surprised by the level of, I guess, lack of inclusivity in the UK because at least in my idea of what the UK is like, I think of, like, a melting pot of people, especially London. And it's surprising me that this is still the type of culture that's present in businesses in the UK. So, what you're doing here is's great to be vocal and to have this visibility for other people in that part of your world. Moving forward, how do you think we normalize the conversation of diversity in the workplace? Like, where do you see the British A/E/C industry in 10 years time?

Jai: I definitely think that they've worked really well on improving females in the industry. I think we've got a lot of work to do in having different races in the industry and having different sexualities be visible in the industry. It feels like women's been the first point of order and then the others might come after. Like, I do appreciate it's difficult to tackle all of them at once and you've gotta start somewhere, but I do feel like something else needs to come next.

What will help improve that is better representation, more visibility, seeing people in a variety of different roles and in leadership roles and having just more open conversations in the office, on sites, even with clients, and not being afraid to challenge people in a healthy way. I'm always open to being challenged and I'll respond as best as I can. And then I think celebration of diversity, but without the sole focus and driving force feeling like it's because the person is being celebrated because they're within a minority. So, seeing people winning awards for just being good at something to do with their job. I think if we can celebrate diversity in a more natural way, I think that will help support move things forward as well. And again, I feel like I say things in a contradictory way because it's about getting the balance, isn't it? You have to have the conversation, but you also don't want to just solely focus on that because that isn't the only part of that person's identity.

Bryan: It's so nuanced, but I think you hit the nail on the head. I think we should celebrate people, celebrate their skillset, celebrate the perspectives they bring to the job, right? I think that's what diversity, equity, and inclusion is about. It's about having these conversations. And the more and more I speak to people across the industry...and it's just been so... This podcast has been so enlightening. It's actually been a really huge blessing because it allows me to understand so many different and unique perspectives, right? Not everyone has the same perspective and how to approach a situation, so I really appreciate how you've handled the level of nuances in your experiences, Jai. You're so confident. I think you're fearless.

And props to your mom and the people that you've had in your childhood to help you get to this place because you're really gonna allow, hopefully, maybe, a bi girl or a guy or a queer trans person, if you wanna stand up for yourself and join the A/E/C industry, be yourself, you know. Celebrate your skillset and you can do it. There are gonna be people along that you may not see them, you may not know them, but here we are having that conversation. You're allowing that opportunity to come into your life right now, and then I hope that people understand that.

Jai: I'm just very lucky though, because I also have had a lot of supportive people in my life. You know, my husband is a good example. He's also a chartered building surveyor, but he's a few years ahead of me in experience. And, for example, with our house extension, I'm more into design and spatial design. I designed it all. And when the contractors were on-site, they'd quite often just default go to him to ask him, "What is this detail?" Or, "What's going on here?" And he would always say, "Don't ask me, ask Jai. She's the one who designed it."

And I joke about his white male privilege all the time because he comes from an upper-middle-class background as well. He's not suffered really any trauma, he's never had any hardships, but through our discussions, he totally understands how that means. It's furthered his career and his development because he hasn't been stunted by any of that. So, it means he's really not selfish. He will really sort of promote other people and he will really support other people to be seen, and that's what I was saying earlier. I think it's really good to have allies and have people who can have that conversation for you so you don't have to feel like that's what your breath is constantly used on. That's what you are constantly talking about. Because people will see you as someone who's just always going on about it, and you don't want that either.

Bryan: Yeah. I think that's a great way to end this conversation, don't underestimate the power of your support system and people that are out there willing to help and listen to you, be it in the UK or across the pond here in California.

Jai: All over the world, baby.

Bryan: Literally halfway around the world. I love how this also... It's so crazy to me that I can have this conversation with you halfway across the world right now.

Jai: It's great, isn't it?

Bryan: It's amazing. I love it. And Jai, you know, please, anyone, if you have questions, feel free to reach out to us. If you have anything, if anything has sparked your interest here, reach out, let us know, and maybe we can talk about it in the next podcast. But with that, thank you so much, Jai. You're amazing. And don't let anyone else tell you otherwise, but you know that.

Jai: No problem. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.

Bryan: Thank you for being here. Everyone, thanks for listening. Check back next month with our next episode.

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