News + Ideas

Transcript

Bryan: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to "MGAC Inner Voices," a podcast taking you into the issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the AAC industry. As always, I'm going to preface this podcast by letting you know that we're not experts in all things diversity, equity, and inclusion. We're here to share our stories, our experiences, and how together we can create a better outcome for all of us in the AAC industry. I'm Bryan Gamez, your podcast host. I'm back again in this chair. I'm a project manager at MGAC, working and living in Los Angeles. And today we're going to be talking to a senior director in the Los Angeles office. He hired me actually, Mr. Casey Gordon. So, I'm going to let you introduce yourself, Casey.

Casey: Well, first of all, thank you, Bryan, and thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be a part of this podcast. My name is Casey Gordon, Senior Director, Los Angeles. I've been in the industry for roughly 29 years, started my career practicing architecture for the first 10 years in New York, and then about almost 20 years ago moved to Los Angeles and started working as a general contractor, did that for a while, and then transitioned to the owner side. So, I worked on projects ranging anywhere from $2 million to a billion at this point in my career, and I've been lucky enough to have collaborated with extremely diverse groups of all types.

Bryan: So, we really have a resourceful, talented guest today, Casey, but you know, what's interesting about you is, and for our listeners who don't know you, we're pivoting our podcast today. You're actually a cisgender white heterosexual male in the industry. And so that's interesting because generally we've interviewed minorities, and we thought it would be really interesting to speak to an ally. And so Casey, tell me, like, why did you want to be on this podcast besides me asking you, you know, twisting your arm.

Casey: Yeah. No, no, first of all, I'm a big fan. I really appreciate what you're doing. And I do have a strong belief in equality and equity. And, you know, those things have to be included not only in our industry but in our society. I've witnessed the positive impact of having diverse teams and an inclusive environment, especially when it comes to creativity and problem-solving. And I do feel that it's a responsibility as a leader to advocate for DE&I values. So, I am to support the cause. And I'd like to amplify, you know, the underrepresented voices, even though I'm a cisgen male. I think the old adage is, you know, really I shouldn't probably be on the show. And that's why I do appreciate this is true inclusion, you know?

Bryan: Yeah.

Casey: Not to kill it, but I do aim to support the cause. I think you have to amplify people's underrepresented voices. And I think you've even said this, "Turn commitments into meaningful actions."

Bryan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's why I really appreciate you being on here because, you know, you're not actually the only white male that we've had on the podcast before. We actually interviewed two principals from Chromatic, a leading lighting design firm here in Los Angeles with Lauren Dandridge, who used to be one of my college professors, this fabulous black woman and her partner. And, you know, it's great to talk about how your decisions and allieship help propel the industry forward. So, you talked about you really support diversity. And we have a really diverse team in the LA office. You know, I do have to say I really enjoy working with Casey. I enjoy working at MGAC. I'm not saying... You know, these are genuine compliments, Casey.

Casey: I'm smiling. I am. I'm happy to hear that.

Bryan: For my listeners, I do not just give out compliments. I really feel like I can come and show up to work and be my authentic self, which is something that we're really striving to do internally. So, we'll get to that point. But I want to start with where you started off in the industry and what's the change been like over the decades, because you said you've been doing this for 29 years. By the way, Casey doesn't look like he's been in the industry for 29 years.

Casey: Well, I feel like it.

Bryan: So, you started your career in New York City, and you're from Oklahoma.

Casey: I am. I am from Oklahoma. And I knew right out of architecture school that I wanted to move to New York. That's really where all the opportunity was. And I was very excited to go test my metal, as they say. You know, I went there. It was great. And I would say one of the things...you know, in reference to what we're talking about here today, one of the things that has always stuck with me and even back then is in the '90s, you know, there wasn't DE&I. As a matter of fact, in the '90s, things were openly, especially even in New York, like, you know, it was tough. It was a tough world. There was also a recession at the time. And so there were not a lot of jobs available. So, you really had a lot of competition.
One of the things when I was hired, I was hired at a company called Perkins Eastman, which is now a worldwide firm, but I was the 35th employee. And, you know, I used to call architecture back then, like a lot of other people did, a boys' club, because that's who I trained with. I trained under a lot of men, worked with a lot of men. And, you know, in the beginning, start seeing females being hired, but, you know, they weren't in leadership roles at the time. And if they were, there were very few. And it was something that was so interesting to me. And it did make me look back at, "Oh, my gosh." I'm thinking about school. I'm thinking about my teachers. I was thinking about everything, I was like, "Gosh, there's just not a lot of women in it."

And I would say over the next three years, we grew to 300 people. And, yeah, it was painful, but we really started to see a lot of females join not just from a low level but also from a managerial and leadership level, which I thought was quite amazing really. And when I say that, I want to qualify this because when I first started, you would see a few women in this more senior role, but they had felt like they had to speak like men and act like men and be very, you know, strong-willed and maybe even a little bit aggressive. And by the end of that three to six years, the first time you started seeing women that were more feminine, women that were leading with a feminine voice. And I have to admit that was so nice to see, you know, because I have... Look, I have five sisters. You know, I came from a family with a lot of women in it. And let me tell you, I'm used to getting a lot of opinions and I appreciate all of them. So, to see that happen, that was something that I, you know, could really relate to. I was like, finally, we get a chance to see a woman be strong in these roles.

And now, I mean, goodness gracious, I mean, 30 years later, you see, even at MGAC, I think we have one of the highest statistics of females even in the construction industry. So, you know, just seeing the dramatic increase in leadership positions, you could see that there was a greater acceptance and encouragement. And for women to be women, and that's very authentic, and that is also, you know, the beginning, what I could see of, you know, DE&I.

Bryan: Yeah, I think it's interesting you also touched upon that women felt the need to be...you know, speak like a man, act like a man. There's been guests on this podcast that have noted that they've had female mentors, you know, women who were younger in their careers, and there was really that feeling that they had to. And so I'm happy that now there isn't this expectation for women to conform to one identity, because that's completely unfair. But you're now living in Los Angeles, and I think you've been here for quite a bit of time, right?

Casey: Mm-hmm, almost 20 years. Well, 20 years, actually, this month. Oh, my gosh. Twenty years this month.

Bryan: Was there ever really a striking change between New York City and LA in terms of people and then inclusivity and diversity?

Casey: Coming from a place like Oklahoma, it was very whitebread, a lot of white Christians, nothing bad about that at all. But I will admit when I got to New York, one of the things that I loved about it was people living on top of people, every culture you could possibly imagine learning how to get along with each other. And there were cultural clashes, there were things that you would see, but they were really, kind of, superficial for the most part. And then, you know, when I came to Los Angeles, Los Angeles did have somewhat a homogenous feel to it, but it also had every different part of Los Angeles like another enclave. And I was lucky enough at the time to have a friend who lived in Venice. And I went to Venice, and it was so gritty, and it was so culturally diverse. At the time, I was like, "This is where I need to be. I don't want to be surrounded by a bunch of people that look and talk like me. I want to be surrounded by people who I can learn from, you know, who have a different perspective, different background, different upbringing," because I've always been interested in that kind of thing.

When we surround ourselves with people who are just like us, that espouse the same political views or the same culture that they grew up in, you can't know anything different. And, you know, frankly, sometimes I think that that's kind of a boring way to live life, you know, perhaps too comfortable. You know, I want to be around people who... You know, I want to taste different foods, I want to hear different languages, you know, all of these things. And, I mean, I've traveled a decent amount of the world. I still like to. It's one thing I want to do for my son, he's 15. And, you know, I think that through travel, through education, through understanding different cultures, I really got to turn that around and look at my own, look at the American culture. What does the American culture embrace? Who are we? You know, they call us a melting pot. I mean, you could say we are, but people tend to, you know, kind of, stick to their own groups still. I would like to see... Like, even, you know, Western Europe and some of these places, that's the true melting pot if you look at all of those people, and they have a different way of getting along. And I think that it's nice. And so I like to introduce those things in my friend groups when I can.

Bryan: You talk about the benefits, personally, of just being diverse, but since you've been in the industry, have you seen a striking benefit to more inclusion in the workplace? Because I think a lot of people, especially now these days, get hung up on the acronym DEI. And I don't want people to get hung up on that acronym. Really the idea is to be sharing these stories, and sharing our experiences, and promoting visibility. That's what it's about. And we're not trying to steal anyone's jobs. And I think there's a knee-jerk reaction that there's a negative connotation when it comes to DEI for certain individuals to, I guess, really reject diversity, you know, as it poses a threat to the status quo. But have you seen benefits to diversity and inclusion in the workplace over the two decades?

Casey: Well, absolutely. I think that diversity in the workplace, because people are culturally different, different cultures have different...even the amount of space that you can stand next to somebody, the bubble of comfort is different in different countries. Different things are normal. So, when you have a more diverse work environment, you have to be a little bit more careful and respectful of making sure that you don't say something that accidentally offends somebody's religion or anything like that. But also, I think there's another side to that, whereas people have to be a little bit less sensitive too with the understanding that some people just don't know. And so you can educate each other through problem-solving. And that's why I think a diverse team...

Bryan: And dialogue.

Casey: And dialogue. And I think that's why a diverse team is better because people come to solve problems differently because they didn't all go to the same elementary in, you know, Montana. They went to different places from, you know, Kandahar or, you know, Sacramento, which is the same. But the thing is solving a problem through different angles and having a diverse team, you can get to yes faster. I have experienced that firsthand. We had a extremely diverse team. We were working on a $400 million project for Martin Luther King about 15 years ago. And I would say there was every race, color, creed you could possibly imagine, all the way from laborers in the field up to people in managerial positions in the Department of Public Works and everything in between. And when you sat in some of these 30-person meetings, you had brilliant ideas come out that not just an American would come up with, but maybe somebody from a different country that approaches things that maybe a Chinese point of view, maybe something that, you know, educationally we are different. And so we bring these things to the table.

And I think that it's always good to hear different people's approaches. And to that point, one of the things that we did was we had a failing system when it came to change order review. And the change orders that were coming over were being packaged in a way that might be 30 to 50 pages per change order. And we were inundated. What we did is we looked at, well, who on the contractor side is doing it? We've got a list of 12 names. Well, who on the consultant side is reviewing it? We've got a list of 15 names. And it was very diverse. Again, you know, some of these were ESL folks. And so we said, "Hey, what if we pair these people up with these people? We pair these people up with these people based on relationships and based on how folks had gotten along previously?" And I kid you not, within maybe six months, we changed a backlog of probably over $20 million into zero. And that's just by looking at the problem of communication, just educating yourself on how can we better communicate. And, like, multicultural communication is a real thing. And that's one of the biggest things that people I think fail...

Bryan: It is.

Casey: ...is they don't think about the fact that I'm saying something in a way that somebody else doesn't understand. So, saying it louder, saying the same thing louder doesn't work. You got to say it different.

Bryan: You know, doesn't help. I know exactly what you mean. That's really interesting. That's a really interesting point, Casey, because I've never thought of it in that way. But it's interesting when there are other Latinos on site, like for me to bridge that communication is so important because it creates a better workflow. And it also establishes a better relationship. So, I'd like that you guys did that on that project. I want to shift into some more interesting questions. As a senior director, how have you approached DEI in the workplace? Again, the acronym, which I don't like to really say in that way, but have you ever encountered blunt aggression to others? Have you ever had anyone that felt unsafe in the workplace? And how did you handle those situations? Because I think there's a lot of people in other companies that may be interested in that. As an ally, how do you listen? How do you take these stories in? And then how do you really make sure that someone feels comfortable?

Casey: I love this question because I get to talk about this from a very high-level point of view, which I had subscribed to, which I didn't even know at the time. I've always subscribed to a servant leadership philosophy. And it wasn't until maybe five years ago that somebody...we were talking about it and he's many years my senior and he's like, "Oh, you're a servant leader." And I was like, "I don't even know what that is." He explained it to me and then I went and looked at it. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I've been living by these tenants as a leader for years." And what the servant leadership philosophy really deals with is prioritizing the needs of the team and supporting their growth. So, in other words, it's not militaristic, and you don't whip people telling them what to do. You don't try to force round things into square holes.

And so by doing that, the first thing that you have to do is you have to really actively listen. And that's hard because a lot of people don't want to do it. A lot of people get into a leadership role and they think, "No, no, it's my time to talk." And that's the wrong mindset. The right mindset is, "You know what? We have a task. Here are the lists of things that we have to do." And we have client, client is this or that or the other. These are the hot buttons, stay away from these things. These are the things that we need to do. And by listening to how other people approach it, I can support them from a leadership point of view, and I can guide them, and I can hear what they're doing. And I can watch them and I can say, "Hey, let's nip and tuck this over here. Let's do it this way. Have you thought about it like this?" And I get to hear where they are with it.

And that creates an environment that is very trusting and that's very caring. And I think those things, you have to build trust. You don't ever want to work with people that you can't trust. And so once you do that, then you really are able to create what I consider to be a safe environment for not only self-expression but also without fear of retribution. I mean, everybody's had a boss where they don't even want to speak up because they're afraid that they're going to be shut down in front of other people and that's embarrassing or whatever. I don't want that environment. I want to hear what everybody has to say. And I want to hear people being included because you're not going to go with everything, but at the end of the day, it's good to get all the ideas in.

Bryan: So, you're telling me, and if I'm hearing this correctly, you would rather know straight away if someone feels unsafe and you would want them to speak up without that fear of retribution, correct?

Casey: I'm more talking about the philosophy of how I like to lead. And I think that it does speak to that. If I could peel that back a little bit and get further into your question, ever encountering sexism or blunt aggression, if you create a trusting environment with the people that you manage and the jobs that you manage together, then you automatically have a safe environment for those things to be able to be discussed. And so I always would like to think that everybody that I work with understands that if you have a problem over the years, and I've worked with some of the folks that we were working with for seven, eight years, maybe even more, and I know that anybody can pull me aside, take me into another room and say, "Hey, I have an issue." And I will say, "Well, are you safe?" That's the most important thing. And we remove them from that environment. And I think that you have to address the issue immediately and you offer support. You have to make sure that this person is in a place where they feel that they are able to express to you, or at least they're away from the thing that's the threat. And then you have to ensure clear channels for reporting and resolving instances are put in place. And after that, you have to encourage an open dialogue in those channels so you can foster a culture of respect. And I've been through it. I've been through it at MGAC. I've been through it at other firms. I don't think that you can ensure that somebody is not going to be, you know, having microaggression on, but you can certainly ensure that they can feel safe without the fear of retribution. And I feel strongly that... You know, I've done that with our team.

Bryan: I agree.

Casey: But, yes, establishing trust and confidentiality and making sure that other people understand that you're going to advocate for them.

Bryan: Yeah, I do have to say I do feel safe at work, Casey. I think this job has made me feel like I can just show up and be 100% myself. And if I do have issues with them, thank God, we've never had issues with anyone at work. I love everyone we work with. And we do have...

Casey: We have a good team.

Bryan: ...a really good team. But I think that starts with senior leadership. I mean, this podcast wouldn't be possible without the support of Mark. Thank you, Mark, our CEO, our president. And so he's such a huge advocate of this. And then, again, to have someone like you, a senior director at that upper echelons of senior leadership, it really shows the amount of care that the company is taking to really make sure that everyone is showing up and doing their best being their authentic selves because that really is how we create great projects, a successful project, great teams. So, I appreciate that. You know, also sometimes I think people also want to know after those incidences, when they do happen, that the toxicity stays. And like, how do you navigate those waters? Has it been difficult for you to navigate those waters?

Casey: I think it's always difficult because it is. You know, when you have a fight or somebody has a fight in a room, and they leave the room and someone else can walk in and feel it, you know, it's weird. There's a couple of different things that have happened in my career. One is an external thing that has happened on other projects, meaning I've been in the field. And general contracting is extremely stressful. So, once you get a toxic environment in a general contractor, like on the subcontractor level, you got to sit down and you got to figure out who's causing it, how do we remove them from the project or allow them rather allow them to fix it or be removed from the project. That is something that I've realized if you don't know it, I don't identify that as soon as possible. You can have a project for three years that people hate their job, they'll literally quit. They don't want to come to work, because you have somebody who's advocating for that project to fail.

Similarly, when you have a person that is in your work environment, like meaning in MGAC, in the LA office, whatever it is, and that person is throwing a lot of toxicity around, that stays long after they're not in the room too. And so you do have to have that hard conversation and say, "Are you sure this is the right place for you? Because it sounds like you are not happy. What needs to change on your end? Because it's affecting other people." And listen, people have ups and downs just like in life. It's like your spouse, your partner, whatever. You have a good month and you have a bad month and whatever. And you have to remember that with people at work too and help them. And it's hard because you want to create these professional walls, but you also want to create an environment where you can say, "Hey, that doesn't work for anyone else either."

Bryan: It's very tricky. Sometimes those people don't have the awareness that they're doing something. So, I think it always takes another team member to speak up. And really a lot of the stories I've heard on this podcast, it sounds like a lot of those individuals who were toxic or would say things that were not acceptable or appropriate at all were just unaware. And I think once you identify it and then speak to them, it really is a catalyst for change, because I think some of these have had happy endings where they're like, "I didn't realize I was being inappropriate because no one else had ever called me out on it or whatever, had a discussion surrounding it." So, I think those are really the proper channels to go through and talk because some people really just are so ignorant and unaware. And I think that's what we're trying to do here to create that visibility and promote a safe work environment. Have you ever faced clients that were uncomfortable with diversity? And how did you handle that? I think we've also talked about how you staff projects and qualify candidates. So, we can talk about that here.

Casey: I like that. I like the question because it allows me to really dive into something that I think is important, which is even when I get a lot of resumes across my desk, a lot of the folks that even get them to me, they've been gate valve checked prior to getting to me by recruiting. And so usually if somebody's getting through to my desk, they're probably qualified. But qualifications are different, especially in different types of firms you work for. You could be qualified to do a job, but are you client-ready? There's all these things that kind of weigh into it, right? Where are you in your career? What is your career path? What are your career goals?

And very importantly, too, I can say that the team that we have in Los Angeles, and I think the team that also exists in different offices as well, those are specifically curated. You know this, Bryan. Whenever I interview somebody who I think is good, I'll actually start introducing them to the folks prior to them getting to the next level to make sure that people are like, "You know, I've read the resume. I shook their hand. We spent 10 minutes talking. I like their style. They seem to be on brand." Whatever it is. And those people come in all shapes, forms, colors, pronouns, you name it. And I like that. And everybody is very inclusive on that.

So, I think that's the beginning of the question, right? The end to the question was, yes, we did have a client one time fairly recently on a very high-profile project. And this client was a very high-profile individual. And we put a very qualified team in front of them. We didn't win the job at first because they thought we were too expensive. But when the other team fell down, we respectfully took the call and said we'd be delighted to, you know, take the project over. We did. The resumes were perfect for the fit. And that's what we try to do not only for the team but also for the client. We only put resumes in front of them that have the appropriate background to build the type of job that they're going to build. If we have a biotech facility, we don't throw somebody at it that only does, you know, high-end TIs. We look at people who are appropriate for that client's needs. And then we put them in front of them.

And this particular client accepted the team, you know, hadn't really met them in person yet but accepted the team, and then later came to us with an issue because one of the people on the team was gay, openly gay, which, you know, we promote. You know, that's the authentic self thing. And we talked about it internally. And we said, "No, you know, we're not going to remove this person. This person is qualified for the job. They're going to win everything that you need to for this particular project." And within a matter of months, this person that was on the client side, not only did they accept this person, but they actually became very friendly with this person in the sense that they wanted to recommend this person for other jobs. And I do believe that that was a transformation of this person's worldview. I do. It was simply exposure and education. And it's not like we had a syllabus that we put in front of anybody. It was just literally exposure of our employee going to this job and showing not only do I work my butt off but I care about your project. And I could say that all of our employees feel that way. I think they do. I really think they do. And I think that's how we hire. And so that was a big win for us.

Bryan: I really appreciate you telling that story, Casey, because I think it shows MGAC's dedication to keeping a qualified candidate on a job and supporting them. I appreciate that MGAC stuck by this candidate and this person. And so that's an interesting story, and I'm really glad to hear that your client had that transformation because sometimes people really don't know. They've never met an openly gay person, an openly trans person or whatever. But once you do it, really just there's a personal aspect of it that really... because you're working with these people for day to day, right? And whatever the project may be, you may have so much more face time with them than your own family really. So, that really is the transformation that helps push this industry forward. And I'm glad that individual changed, and it sounds like it was a happy ending.

Casey: It was. We actually got a lot more work because of it. And like I said before, I considered it a win. It was not a hard decision to make, but it was a hard thing to know if it was going to have a negative consequence and it did not. It was a good story.

Bryan: That kind of leads into this next question. You kind of already answered this, but like what value does diversity, equity, inclusion bring to the workplace? What does it bring to clients? What does it bring to projects? The next part of that question is also, how have you implemented initiatives in the workplace? And how do you have that conversation with other folks and other companies who are struggling? Because I feel like a lot of other companies do struggle with this now.

Casey: I think that it's so much better than it used to be. And, you know, this is really kind of the long game for me. You know, the statement that I'm making here is if I look at the workforce, if you look at the labor force even in the low level of general contractors, you see a level of acceptance and also California too. I'm not going to mince words here. New York was the same way and people are, I think, more comfortable being their authentic self.

So, I think that there's been a natural kind of synergy that has been built with this. When MGAC first rolled out, you know, the pronouns on the email signatures, it's great. And I feel very comfortable about the fact that I even chose on accident somebody's wrong pronoun and somebody pulled me aside, a junior person pulled me aside and respectfully was like, "Hey, I just want to let you know. You said that and that's not the way it is." And I was like, "I love it that you're comfortable enough to tell me that, and I don't just get to be some person who people kind of like laugh at like he doesn't know."

Bryan: I think that's the point though. We've done... I've done that before...

Casey: I do too.

Bryan: ...on other projects. And it was with a certain client as well where, you know, I and all the clients too where I'm like...we had a non-binary team member, and they were amazing. And, you know, I would correct people because that was their identity. And I wanted to be sure that they felt respected and appreciated in the workplace. And they did a fabulous job.

My final question, where do you see the industry in 10 years, Casey? I think this is interesting coming from your perspective because I think a lot of minorities that I've interviewed here are very optimistic and I love that optimism. So, I want to hear your thoughts, and where do you see it going, where would you like to see MGAC going, are there challenges you see ahead?

Casey: Well, first of all, I'd love to see DE&I...I'd like to see that be the norm. Like, you don't even have to have a podcast about it because it's just the normal way you live. Like, people don't think about putting on their seatbelt when they get into a car, but you literally had during the McNamara era in the '70s, you had to start finding everybody because nobody would drive with a seatbelt. And now people don't even think about it. It's just a natural thing that you wouldn't drive in a car that didn't have a seatbelt.

And I think that from that point of view, if you could get the stretch on the metaphor is, you know, DE&I should be so ingrained as a normal thing that we don't...you know, you don't look at somebody's outward appearance or the way that they speak or the words that they use. Rather you look at the qualifications. Is it the right person in the right room with the right people? And find that space for them, find the space where they excel. One of the things in the way that I like to work with people, I like to overload them until they can't carry anything more because that's when you really find out what they're good at and what they're bad at because some of us just don't know. And I think, you know, because you focus on what you're good at for so long, sometimes you don't even know what you're bad at. And I constantly challenge my team and myself to, "Hey, how can we do it better?" And I think that DE&I is part of that next phase is normalize it. If it's deeply embedded within the culture, people are going to be inquisitive rather than closed. And, you know, I don't want to make this political because this is not a political statement, but it's been charged, you know, over the last decade, very charged politically and people are very polarized. And I think that if we can step back from that a little bit and just realize at the end of the day, be respectful. You might not agree with somebody, but just because you don't agree with somebody, it doesn't mean you have to be disrespectful. And I would like to see that be more of the norm now.

Bryan: That's what I do now. I make sure that I always talk to people with respect. I don't want anyone to ever feel like I'm being condescending. And, you know, sometimes, you know, we've talked about this actually on a recent project where we opened the communication between ourselves and the contractor and made sure, you know, we had open lines of communication to make sure that everyone felt like a team member because that was a very difficult project and we didn't want anyone to feel like anyone was being disrespectful.

So, it really helps. And so what you're saying is striking a chord with me that really, at the end of the day, listen and just be really good communicators. And I think that's just the best way to have a successful project, you know, have a great, happy client and then close out the project and move on to the next one.

Casey: Yeah, I totally agree. I think that DE&I is really characterized by a wide range of voices that can contribute to very innovative solutions. And I think that you can get to yes a lot faster if you'll be willing to just listen. And I wake up every day with that in mind. And even when I can hear myself trying to teach somebody about something they haven't done, I stop myself from almost only checking. Do you get it? Do you have any questions? And a lot of people don't do that. They just keep talking.

Bryan: I don't have any other further questions for you, Casey. Thanks for checking in on me.

Casey: Well, hey, listen, this has really been delightful. I have looked forward to this. And when I was first asked to be on here, I was literally taken aback. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, really? I was like, what could I contribute?" But, you know, by talking to you and some of the other team members that we have in the past, it made me feel included.

Bryan: Yeah, and that's what we want. And right now, the company is we're rolling out initiatives and we're making strides in our DE&I program. And we're having roundtables. And I want to be sure that everyone's included. No one's left out. Everyone can hear everyone's stories because that's the point. You know, when you were proposed, I was like, "This is going to be a very interesting conversation." I'm really happy we had the conversation. I'm really happy that you joined, Casey, because I really think this is really going to resonate with other guys out there, white guys or white women who are in leadership roles. I think sometimes people don't know how to react to DEI or they get uncomfortable. And I don't want there to be any sense of discomfort. I think there will be, but it's okay because discomfort makes for growth. And then you overcome that growth and you become a better person and a better company. So, that's where we're going for.

So, thank you so much, Casey.

Casey: Thank you for having me, Bryan.

Bryan: I really appreciate it.

Casey: Thank you. This has been great.

Bryan: I'll see you in the office. Well, everyone, thank you so much for listening to this episode of "MGAC Inner Voices." Check back in a few weeks for our next episode. Thank you.