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Bryan: Hi everyone, and welcome to "MGAC Inner Voices," a podcast digging into issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the architecture, engineering, and construction industry. I'm Bryan Gamez, one of your co-hosts for the podcast, a project manager at MGAC, working and living in sunny LA. As always, I just wanna preface this podcast by letting everyone know that I'm not an expert in all things diversity, equity, and inclusion. My guest isn't either. We just wanna share our stories, and discuss how together we can create a better outcome for all of us in the AEC industry. And today we have a very special guest. We'll be speaking with Louise Sharp, a principal at HLW. She's had a very lengthy career that's spanned several continents. She currently leads the Santa Monica HLW practice, and I'm just so excited to speak with her today. So, Louise, do you wanna introduce yourself?

Louise: Yeah. Hi, Bryan. Thank you for having me. Yes, I am Louise Sharp, and based in the Santa Monica office. As you said, I'm a design principal, and my focus is really interior architecture, so that's where I have been focused for many years now. And as you mentioned, I've worked in several countries at this point. So, I have been in the professional industry for probably over 25 years, but who's counting, right?

Bryan: I'm not.

Louise: Thank you.

Bryan: So, I wanna know how you started your career in architecture.

Louise: So, a huge part of me is my background, because I'm from New Zealand originally, and that's where I grew up, and where, I think, you know, it's always hard when you lived in multiple places and people are like, "Where are you from?" I mean, I'm clearly, my accent is not American, right? So, it always leads to this interesting conversation, because I've lived here for 23 years at this point. And I am an American citizen, but I'm more of a global citizen, I think. So, life started in New Zealand, and then I left there when I was in my early 20s, just to travel, because we're so far away from the rest of the world, and I think all Kiwis, as we're known, are very curious, by nature, to see what else is out there. So, I left New Zealand and I moved to the UK, which is where my father was from, and ended up living and working there for quite a few years. So, I actually, I started working in an architectural practice, quite a large practice, but doing administrative and marketing work. So, not on the design side at all, although that's something I knew I really wanted to do, but didn't have the opportunity to study that in New Zealand because there was definitely more limited courses, and the length of the course was extremely long. And when you're 17, 7 years seems like a really long time to study architecture.

Bryan: Oh, my God. It's seven years in New Zealand?

Louise: Yeah, you do four years, then you go off and do your internship and then you go back. So, it may have changed now, but that's what it was at the time. And, you know, I think I was just eager to get out and see the rest of the world. So, kind of put it on pause, went and traveled, and then, as I was working at this architectural practice, saw that there was opportunities to study in the UK, and I was eligible to do that at the time. So, I ended up going back to college in my late 20s, to study design at Cardiff Institute of Design and Architecture.

Bryan: That's amazing. Were you always interested in design, and, when you were in New Zealand? And so, when you had the opportunity to work in the UK, you just obviously jumped at it, right?

Louise: Mm-hmm.

Bryan: Did you have any opportunities or did you have any mentors that helped you along the way, or, like, helped you get your foot in the door? Because, I mean, this was, I would say... When was this? You said in the '90s?

Louise: Yeah. It was in the '90s. Yes. I mean, I did. Thanks for reminding me.

Louise: No, no, no, no. Yeah. So, as I said, I worked in a much more administrative capacity in the office, but got to know all the partners and principals and senior leadership in the practice, and so they were very supportive of my journey to study. And when I finished, the managing partner at the time said, would I like to display my work in the office? And so, I was able to do that. And then one of their staff members was taking a leave of absence, and so he asked me if I'd like to come and work, to replace this designer while she was out. And then five, six years later, I was still there. So, I've always had that encouragement and that support, in terms of, you know, getting into the industry, but a little bit of a different way of doing it, right? Kind of seeing the other side of the business, and then deciding it was something I wanted to go and do.

Bryan: Did you ever feel that when you started you had any obstacles or challenges to grow? Or was it always just, you always felt like there was a comfort of people? You had a great support system... Because it sounds like you did. It sounds like...and that's what I love to hear.

Louise: No, I think I did. I mean, at the time, the practice that I worked for had engineering and architecture. It was definitely much more male-dominated than female. But I had two great mentors that I worked with, who were both, you know, very senior on the design side, had been in the industry for many years, and were great role models to me, both of whom are now retired, but I remain friends with them, and I think they taught me so much about how to lead. In fact, I still remember to this day the very first presentation that I went to with one of them, to present materials and finishes, and just looking at her in awe as to how she presented that so confidently. But again, it's having those people who you can watch and learn from, and who bring you into the process in a way that's supportive. Not calling you out, but really assisting you. You know, sometimes you have to jump in the deep end a little bit, but knowing that...

Bryan: Yeah. And that's fine.

Louise: ...knowing that you're not gonna drown. There's someone there to help you when you need it. But yeah, they were great role models, and I think, especially looking to their style of leadership really gave me a lot to aspire to.

Bryan: So, I know there's a quite a bit of difference now from when you started and how architecture firms are led. I think that the architecture industry, construction industry has gotten more diverse, right? Everyone's more conscious about it. But in that time, when you started, you know, what was the leadership style like? Did you ever felt like there was ever a time when you saw a female in power or, you know, in the C-suite, and you were like, "I don't want to, you know, approach my practice in that way," or, I mean, do you have any of those anecdotes that you can talk about?

Louise: Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean, the practice that I'm talking about, at the time had no female principals. The CFO, however, was a female, and she was from New Zealand, so, you know, interestingly enough, yeah. The CFO was female, very, kind of unusual, but no female partners. Just...

Bryan: If I were you, I'd be very happy to see that. I'd be like, "Wow. I feel so seen."

Louise: Exactly. I remember her taking me to New Zealand House, because she was...you know, which was the embassy of New Zealand, she was part of that, and, like, being, "Oh." So, no, I mean, she was certainly a great role model. But it's interesting because it was both interiors and architecture and engineering in that practice. And I think, you know, often common times, even you'll see interior architecture being a little undermined as opposed to architecture, and I think there's still some of that today as well, right? I think what we do as an interiors, you know, interior architects and practice, is as critical. It really informs the way that people interact with space, and there are life safety issues as well, so...

Bryan: Absolutely.

Louise: ...it's a critically important aspect still. But, again, it was definitely much more male-dominated, even the construction. I don't think I ever saw one female on-site from the construction side, you know, for many years into my tenure as a designer. But again, having seen my mentors and the way that they interacted and reacted and led with such, I think, confidence, and humor, and really strive to create authentic connections with their clients, many whom became their friends and my friends, I think that was a really vital lesson in terms of learning how to connect with people. You know, it's not just superficial. It can be really open and honest. And I think honesty as well is another really key way of communicating. You know, we don't always know all the answers. There are times when we don't have the answer on the spot, right? So, knowing when is the right time to just say, "I need a minute. I'll get back to you," is I think also really important. Don't try to pretend you know everything.

Bryan: Yeah. I think even today that there's been times, even, I've been in the industry for approaching nine years now, eight, nine years, and I've always seen such a difference in style between men and women. I think females tend to lead with a little bit more compassion, a little bit more empathy. And I think that goes a long way, especially in the workplace. A lot of my PMs before, Louise, were females, and I've always just looked up to them, being as a gay male, there's always been just been a special connection to women who have always been so supportive of me growing up, and I think the way that you're describing your career beginnings resonates with me because of that fact, right, that they were so confident. And I'm sure it wasn't easy, right? It's never easy to be... And at that time, and it's probably not easy now too. Right, Louise? I don't...

Louise: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the industry's changed, but there are many factors that are definitely still the same. And I've seen both sides of that, right. I've also seen a side of a generation of women before me, who felt like they've had to lead in a way that, like you said, might be more of a style that one of their male colleagues might have demonstrated, and that they've had to feel that that's the way they've had to lead in order to succeed, which, I think, you know, part of me understands that. You're trying to fit in. But at the same time, I don't feel like, you know, we as women should have to do that. I think everyone needs to find their own style of leadership. And again, something that resonates with them. Don't try to be someone or something that you're not.

I think you'll find the right clients and the right projects by being true to who you are, not by pretending to be someone that you're not, right? Because, you know, it all comes out in the end, and I think it just, it creates a better experience for everyone. And again, like, leading with compassion and kindness isn't always the most respected way, perhaps. But I think, for me, it's always been a critical style of collaborating and leading, because, you know, I've had people who've been like that for me, and I've found that it's really brought out the best in me. It's made me want to succeed and do more. And I've had the same experience in working with my colleagues, and many of them who I'd call friends, in the industry, just by being supportive of one another.

Bryan: And folks, I just have to say, Louise is a very elegant designer, elegant principal, and the way that she leads her projects is just, it's great, and I think your team responds to it, Louise. And I think that's what it's all about. As we continue through the coming years, I think diversity, equity, inclusion isn't only just gonna be DEI. I also think it's gonna be about belonging, right? It's gonna DEIB, and you provide that belonging to your staff, Louise. And that's really important.

Louise: We all wanna be part of a culture, part of a tribe, part of a group of people that we feel connected to. I feel like I've always had better outcomes in terms of everything that we've done, and particularly in design, with having diverse points of view. I mean, because the way that you think about something, or I think about something, or someone else, is always gonna be different. But that's the beauty of what we do, right? Is bringing all of those points of view together, having an open and honest conversation, and seeing what evolves from that. To me, that's what's really exciting about design. I don't wanna just heads-down, go at it, and say, "Here it is." That's not what's exciting for me. Even when a client looks at a design and said, "Oh, you know, I really wanna do this, that, or the other," it's easy to be disappointed as a designer because, you know, you kind of put your heart and soul into it, perhaps.

But again, I've always found it interesting to hear their point of view about it, and have a discussion about it, and give you the opportunity to rethink it. It's not always easy, but it's a different type of challenge when you're designing, to come up with a different solution, but also one that you're equally proud of and equally passionate about, right? That's what's kept me interested, I think, in designing for so long, is that aspect, and just being able to work with lots of different people, seeing new young designers come into the industry, who bring a new energy and a new passion, which, you know, it keeps me going because I'm sometimes feel like, I'm like, "Oh, I'm running outta juice here."

Bryan: Never, Louise. I wanna come back to that because I think that's a really important aspect of what I wanted to delve into this podcast. I wanna come back to the opportunities that you provide to the younger generation. But I also wanna touch upon, you've worked in the UK. You also have worked in China. Shanghai, China. I'm not sure if I can call it a stint. You did work a few years there, but what was the experience like in China, for a female, like yourself?

Louise: Very interesting, clearly.

Bryan: And it's a different culture. Very, yeah.

Louise: It's a very different culture. Well, you know, it's interesting, because you suddenly see things very differently. I didn't understand the language at all. I couldn't speak a lick of Mandarin. No.

Bryan: Wait, what? How did you get to Shanghai without speaking Mandarin, Louise?

Louise: Sign language, body language.

Bryan: Oh, yeah. Oh, design. It was the design.

Louise: Well, thank goodness I could draw, right? Because I remember the very first week, and it all happened very quickly, I ended up being there for five years, but I got there, you know, we were designing this project, we were doing quite a few all-nighters, and my colleagues at the time didn't speak a lot of English. As I said, I didn't speak any Mandarin. So, we would draw to explain things. Thank goodness there's a different type of language that we can all relate to, right? But I think, for me, that experience taught me many things. One of which is to rely on all my other senses. You know, when you're presenting to a client, and one of my colleagues would be translating, and I'd be watching my client, hearing what they're saying, but not understanding, so I would be looking at their reactions to things.

And sometimes I would turn to my colleagues and say, "Oh. So, they didn't like the staircase here, but they've thought about this thing." And he'd look at me and like, "How did you know?" Like, he was saying that. I was like, "Well, I don't know." I'm making some assumptions based on just the whole body language and pointing and everything. So, it's interesting when you start to rely on more than just verbal communication, that was a skill that I think was learned, and just how important those different forms of communication are. It was a very interesting experience, but also, culturally, obviously, just learning what's acceptable in terms of behaviors. And actually, surprisingly, perhaps, maybe because of their, kind of, historical background, the managing director of our Shanghai office, for many years, was a female. Right?

Bryan: Oh. Interesting.

Louise: So, it would often be the case that...

Bryan: And this is with HLW, correct?

Louise: Yes. This is with HLW. We'd had an office there for, probably at the time, 20-plus years. So, I think I always felt very accepted in China as a female, foreign female, and a designer or architect. I think there was a level of respect there, which maybe is, you know, all Asian cultures are very different, but definitely in China, and I think, you know...and again, maybe because of what they'd gone through historically, there was more of a level playing field, perhaps. So, that was an interesting experience.

Bryan: Would you ever go back to China?

Louise: You know, what's fascinating is it changes so quickly. So, I'm sure since I left, which is now seven and a half years ago, everything is very, very different. And obviously, there's a lot that's gone on recently. So, I'd love to go back to visit and see what's new. And I think design has evolved enormously in China. You know, I remember when I first went there, interiors and tenant improvement projects weren't a focus, because leases were maybe were for three to five years, so people didn't spend a lot of money on doing buildouts or design. And that has been changing. So, there's been a lot more awareness of the value of what an interior can provide as an experience for everyone, and you can see it just in all the designs that has been published recently. I think, you know, they're very much at the forefront of leading design and design thinking.

Bryan: Yeah. And I think, now, interiors practices are such a large segment of the sector, right? I think. And as we continue, we'll see that. And I think, you know, architecture and interiors, as you said at the very beginning of this podcast, in my opinion, go hand-in-hand. Since I've entered the workforce, it's always been hand-in-hand. I don't think that, you know, right, we do have ground-up, but I think it's just, the space that is created for TIs is just as important as the structure in the ground-up. So, now I wanna shift the focus to the future of architecture interior practices. You've been a principal now for a few years, Louise, and, you know, as you move through your principalship, you know, what opportunities have you been able to present to others, being that you've been so self-aware of the importance of DEI?

Louise: Yeah. Well, first of all, you have to be very conscious of building a culture that is fully inclusive, but you have to support that happening. It doesn't happen just unconsciously, I don't think. So, again, it's a conscious effort, but I see so much the benefit of it that I wouldn't wanna do it otherwise, right? And I think working for an organization who supports that, and working with other principals who support that goal, is really critical. But, you know, it's not just about surrounding yourself. It's also, you know, once you have people in your organization, really giving them a voice. You know, we always talk about the idea that the best idea can come from anyone. It could be come from the intern, could come from the office manager, it could come from me. And I think just, as a senior person, you need to really allow a platform and a voice to those within the organization, in whatever format it is.

You know, it could be in your internal meetings. I mean, I think it's really critical for junior designers and staff to be in client meetings, so that they can understand how those interactions unfold. The responsibility that comes with working directly with a client, and seeing it, is very different than me saying, "Oh, the client asked for this, and can you do it?" right? If they hear it from the client, and are part of the experience, and feel ownership of it, I think it's so much more enriching for everyone. So, I think, also, you know, as an industry, we need to do a lot more to start those conversations early on, to, you know, go to schools and say, you know, this is something that's attainable. This is something, look, that you can think is possible.

And I think, even for me, you know, growing up, I didn't know any female architects. I knew an architect, but it seemed, you know, the, "Oh, so much mathematics involved. So much time involved." It did seem a little unattainable when you're 16, you know, 15, 16, 17. So, hearing more people talk about it. We, I think, have a great group of junior designers who themself are already going out into the industry. We've had programs with Santa Monica College, to just do student charrettes, and really help them understand, and hear from other designers, who maybe have recently graduated, what it's really like to work for a practice, to hear from senior designers or leaders, how they progress through the industry. So, there's always more that we can do to help create the right platforms.

Bryan: And I love that you're saying that you wanna give the younger designers a platform. I think what's just struck me right now was how you said you wanna give them a voice. That is so important, because now, and as we, as, you know, Gen Z, as they enter the workforce, they are going to really change the industry. And I think they really want to be seen and have that sense of belonging. So, it sounds like, at HLW, you really have created a culture of inclusivity. You touched upon it kind of briefly, but what do you think are the benefits to diversity? And I'll tell you this, Louise. I recently had a conversation with someone who said they didn't wanna be part of diversity. They didn't wanna even see it. You know, they were, like, just "Do it in your corner." They didn't even see the importance of it. And that's why I think having these conversations are so important, because diversity is critical to growth and to the economy.

Louise: Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine. I can't imagine that. It's just...

Bryan: It struck me. But I wanna know if you could talk about the benefits of diversity.

Louise: Absolutely.

Bryan: Because I think people need to hear this.

Louise: Yeah. You know, I've always enjoyed working in cities. London, New York, Shanghai, Los Angeles. And I think, for me, one of the reasons I enjoy living in those cities is they're diverse. Right? I guess you may not be able to say that for everywhere geographically, but I think, for most of the capitals of the world, they are diverse, right? And I think it's so much enriched, as an experience of a life experience, by experiencing all of that. But in terms of design, look, there's no denying it. People who work in an office, or people who experience a space, are from all sorts of different backgrounds. So, there are different ways of approaching that. I mean, I think we call it universal design.
It can be everything from the way that you light a conference room. You know, lighting is a critical part of design. Every skin tone reflects differently in terms of lighting, right? So, for many of our clients who are really at the forefront of thinking diversity, they've spent a lot of time, and we've spent a lot of time with them researching, you know, what is the best solutions? Whether it comes to, you know, paint colors, lighting levels, finishes in those rooms. What about wayfinding? We all navigate space differently. You know, some of us navigate through form and shape. You navigate through a city, it might be through monuments or landmarks, right? So, we navigate space in the same way. Maybe if you are visually impaired, you might be using a cane, and the flooring changes and a material change might indicate to you that you're in a circulation space versus a team neighborhood space, right?

So, we have to think about that as designers, because we're designing for diverse communities, and I don't see how we can't. But, having said that, you know, I don't fully understand what it's like to navigate space in a way other than how I know, so that's why having a diverse group of people, with different experiences, as part of designing a space, is so critical, because they will bring a different way of looking at it than I will. We all bring a bias of some kind of another, right, and I think the way that we can help with that is bringing different people into the conversation.

Bryan: Louise, this is gonna sound so cheesy and so cliche. But the way you were just speaking about design, and the importance of diversity, and how it lends itself to the space, it made me kind of emotional, because, you know, it means a lot. Like, I'm Latino. Wayfinding, you're right. It's different per person. And it struck me when you said the floor finishes, right, if you're disabled. My father is 100% blind, and I don't know how my father, he navigates the world, because he just has a cane, and, you know, truncated domes are on, right, it's mostly civil plans, right, it's concrete. But once you get into a space, right, we have signage that has braille on it. But it's such a critical component of design, and even a part of diversity that people forget about, that, it's not just about your skin tone, and, you know, it's also about being inclusive for everyone. And especially who, disabled, because that's why we have the ADA act, right. It's so important to me. I always make sure that when we do final inspections, that everything is to the ADA, because I always think of, like, my personal relationship to it, with my father. So, I just feel like you're talking about design so eloquently, and you have such a passion for it. When I think of you, I think of a passionate architect, designer, principal, who just leads her projects very well. And I think, you know, I want you to just take the compliment, Louise.

Louise: Well, thank you.

Bryan: Anyways.

Louise: Thanks, Bryan. I mean, look, I think sometimes I wouldn't be doing this still if I wasn't passionate about it, right? But I think what keeps me passionate about it is there's always something new to learn. And, you know, I learn from other people, right? You never know where you're gonna learn something from. If I knew it all, I probably wouldn't still be doing it. And that's what, you know, kind of brings me joy and keeps me so engrossed in design, is there's always something new to learn. And then, you know, and now it's new tools to learn, and new ways of doing things. So, just keep on learning.

Bryan: I mean, if there's any clients or anyone that's listening out there, I mean, HLW does it all right here.

Louise: We try.

Bryan: This is the project team you would be working with. We've talked about the importance of diversity, equity, inclusion in the workplace. I wanna be sure that we lend a voice to people who want to enter the industry. There was another gay man who just graduated college, and he came up to me, he's like, "How do you do it? How do you work in construction? Doesn't seem very open." And I'm like, "Well, I've been very blessed to have worked with such supportive people." I didn't project the stereotypes onto the industry, because I thought that would have been detrimental to myself. And it has actually surprised me in very many ways. What would you say to someone who is graduating college and wants to step into the industry, but, you know, they're scared of the fact that maybe architects are still dominated by males?

Louise: Well, the only way to change it is for more of us to be involved, right? And so, I think, reach out to people who you feel like may be able to help you. I think don't be afraid to reach out. If you see someone, at anything, whether it's on Instagram or speaking at a conference, or hears this podcast, you know, reach out, and if someone will talk to you or make an introduction, I mean, you'll be amazed. I remember when I moved from London to New York, I didn't know anyone in New York. I just decided I wanted to move to America. I didn't really even know about the visa process, right? But it was the time before email, so I wrote 20 letters, posted my letters, got to New York, made some phone calls from the payphones, and had all these interviews, right?

And I was amazed how welcoming people were, and that they would refer me. Like, they would be, "Oh, sorry, you know, we're really busy at the moment. Oh, but I've heard of this other architect who may be looking for someone. Would you like me to call them for you and introduce you?" I'll be like, "Yes." And in fact, that's how I ended up at... You know, the first practice that I worked for in New York was through two referrals, and being persistent, and just asking people. And I think the industry may seem a little unapproachable sometimes, but when you connect with an individual, and if it's not the right individual, move on to the next one, you will find someone that you can create a personal connection with. And if they can't help, you, may be able to connect you with someone else who can help you. So, yeah.

Bryan: And it goes back to mentorship, right, Louise? The importance of mentorship, and Louise wouldn't be where she's at today without her mentors.

Louise: Absolutely. No. You know, I feel like I have been very fortunate, because I've had a lot of amazing female role models in my career, which may seem surprising, but maybe I've also looked for them. I think that's the other thing. I remember when I interviewed for a position at one time, I was interviewing with multiple firms. And one of them I interviewed, all-male, another one was a mix, and the other one was all-female. And that was a part of my decision-making in terms of the company that I chose eventually to work with, was who I was interviewing, what they were saying, and the role models that I thought I would have there. So, look for the role models that you feel connected to, who feel like will be supportive of you, and that you can kind of recognize.

Bryan: That's a good point. I want them to also remember that they're not just interviewing you, right?

Louise: Oh, totally.

Bryan: You're also interviewing them, right?

Louise: Yeah.

Bryan: Anyone who is young, don't sell yourself short, right?

Louise: No.

Bryan: Like, you bring an asset to the table, and that's why they're interviewing you. So, you always wanna be sure that it's the right fit. I'm guilty of this. I've had an experience where, you know, I went somewhere and it wasn't the right fit, but, you know, I always ask the right questions. And then you'll eventually find that, and I think Louise hits the nail right on the head there. And networking is important. And if you ever feel like you can't reach out, don't doubt yourself, and just do it. There's nothing wrong with that, right, Louise?

Louise: Yeah. Someone can only say no, you know?

Bryan: Yeah. And then you move on. That's okay.

Louise: And then you move on. Exactly. And lesson learned, and that's what it's all about.

Bryan: One of my final questions for you, Louise, I wanna wrap up here. Where do you see architects, construction, engineering in the next 10 years? Let's say 2033.

Louise: Oof, wow. Well...

Bryan: Where would you like to see it go? Where do you think HLW will be in 10 years?

Louise: Oh, my god. The big questions, Bryan. Well, look, I think, I don't even know that we can imagine what we can imagine, maybe, but I think things are changing so rapidly. I think technology is evolving so rapidly. I think what...

Bryan: AI.

Louise: AI, yes. Even the way that we, you know, put presentations together. But look, we're still designing for an experience of space, whether it's a physical space or a virtual space, we're still designing for somewhere that people want to spend some time, right? And what will make people want to spend time in that space. And I think that doesn't change regardless of whether it's a physical or a virtual space. Maybe the tools with which we do it will. Maybe it will happen more rapidly. But I think there's still a craft and a beauty about it, and I hope we are still doing something in person together somewhere.

Bryan: Just as diverse too, and inclusive. I think it will be...

Louise: Look, I'm hopeful that it will be more so than ever. I think our industry can and does move slowly, but I think, you know, the more people who we have supporting, and that's not just the architects, but that's the clients asking for diverse groups of...

Bryan: Which they're doing more of.

Louise: Yeah. Exactly, you know, for the construction industry to be more diverse, to have, you know, construction managers and sub-consultants who also bring diversity to the table. It's just gonna make for a richer experience for all of us.

Bryan: And I hope that's where we're at too. You know, people like you and I will make sure of that too, Louise. So, well, I wanna wrap up there. I love speaking with you, Louise. If you wanna reach out to us, please do so. But I am so thankful for having you on tonight, Louise. I hope we get to speak again. Any final thoughts?

Louise: Well, no, just thank you for giving me the opportunity to think about this, and to speak with you about it.

Bryan: Of course.

Louise: It's been great, and I said, anyone who is thinking about joining the industry, if anyone's got any questions, please feel free to reach out.

Bryan: Well, with that, everyone, thank you so much for listening to this episode of "MGAC Inner Voices." Check back next month for our next episode. Bye, everyone.

Louise: Bye.