MGAC Inner Voices: Episode 11
MGAC Inner Voices is an interview format podcast where a diverse mix of employees are interviewed to share their perspective on challenges they have faced in the A/E/C industry as a result of their identity—including race, ethnicity, religion, age, gender, sexuality, ability, etc. By discussing the experiences of our staff, our hope is that their stories will have newfound and powerful resonance with the audience—both to comfort others in similar situations and to encourage those in positions of power to bring about positive, actionable changes to workplace environments for all A/E/C professionals, regardless of their identity.
Bryan Gamez (MGAC Assistant Project Manager, Los Angeles) talks with Isabella Villegas (MGAC Senior Vice President, Toronto) about her experience as a fair-skinned Mexican woman, how socio-economic status growing up impacted her work ethic, and the importance of getting feedback from all levels of an organization.
Bryan: Hi, everyone, and welcome to "MGAC Inner Voices," a podcast digging into the issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the architecture, engineering, and construction industry. As always, I want to preface this podcast by letting you know that we're not experts in all things diversity, equity, and inclusion, we just want to share our stories, our experiences, and discuss how together we can create a better outcome for all of us in the AEC industry and beyond. So with that, I'm Bryan Gamez, your host. I'm an Assistant Project Manager at MGAC working and living in Los Angeles, California. And today, we have the honor of talking with Isabella. So, Isabella, do you want to tell us a little about yourself? Introduce yourself to our listeners.
Isabella: Sure. My name is Isabella Villegas. I'm from Toronto. I'm the Vice President of Project Management here in our Toronto office, and I run the Canadian side of things for MGAC. I've been with the company for about a year, and I'm very excited to be part of this podcast series.
Bryan: And we're really happy to have you, Isabella. I'm excited to include your perspective and let's dig into your identity. Can you tell us what group that you identify with?
Isabella: I identify as a female. I was born in Canada, but I was raised in Mexico. My parents are Mexican. They're from Monterrey, Mexico. It's funny because I always tell people that I'm Mexican. And when people hear that I was born in Canada, they're like, "But you were born in Canada." I'm like, "Yeah, but I identify as a Mexican. Like, I identify as a Latina." I was born in Sault Ste. Marie. It's about eight hours north of Toronto to Northern Ontario.
Isabella: Yeah. And when I was six months old, my parents decided to go back to Mexico. So we went back to Mexico, and I lived there until I was about 14 and then we moved back to Sault Ste. Marie. So I finished elementary school and then high school in Sault Ste. Marie. I went to university and I traveled a lot through university but then after that, I settled in Toronto, and I've been here now for about, I think, almost 20 years.
Bryan: Oh, wow. So I'm actually, my family is Guatemalan so we're kind of neighbors.
Bryan: Yeah. And I was born here in the United States, but I identify as Latino. So I understand exactly what you mean. I've never gotten pushback on, you know, the way I look and whatnot but that's really, really cool. And Monterrey is a beautiful city. So you've been in Canada for you said 20 years. Have you ever faced any challenges because of your identity as a female Latina?
Isabella: No. It's interesting because...well, you can see me because we're on Zoom. But when people look at me, they don't think I'm Latina. They think I either married into it because of my last name or just because of my complexion. It's interesting that even nowadays you still hear people say, "Oh, you don't look Mexican." And it's interesting because I'm like, you know, there's a lot of bare skin, blue-eyed Mexicans, but people are so used to, like, the stereotypical, their perception of what a Mexican looks like.
When I meet people, they don't assume or they don't connect the dots that I'm Latina or that my family is Latina. So I've never faced a lot of things like that but my family has. Like, my dad is dark-skinned and he faces it all the time. And my partner now, he's Peruvian and he looks Latina. So I see it from their perspective. And it's just interesting to see that I don't get treated differently.
Bryan: That's such a great point. I have so many Mexican friends and also family members. I'm tan but I haven't faced discrimination like my brother who's darker, has darker complexion, or had darker complexion. It's always made me feel uncomfortable when you see it happening to your family members, the discrimination. So how does that make you feel and how have you addressed it? How does it affect you personally and even psychologically?
Isabella: More than anything, it's just anger, right? Because when somebody mistreats anybody, your family or your close friends or whatever, you want to, right away, my instinct is just to defend. So from that perspective, it's more like the anger and the, I guess, in a way, it's anger with myself too thinking that, "I can't believe this is happening," right? Like, I can't believe this is still happening to you. Like, whether it's my dad or my partner or some of my cousins. And then I feel anger towards the situation. But I also feel anger towards myself that I still get surprised by it. It's interesting that I'm still in shock, I guess, when things like that happen because I feel like it's something that shouldn't be happening.
Bryan: Absolutely. And I think that we live in a very social media digital age at this point where you see things online and you see these viral videos, and they exist elsewhere in the world. But when it happens to you and you experience it firsthand, I get what you're saying, you feel, like, this anger. I feel more a disappointment that people face that every day. That's unfortunate. And I hope that you've been able to confront those challenges. How have you been able to confront them?
Isabella: More than anything it's just talking it through. And like you said, stepping back and becoming a little bit calm. It comes back to educating people about what they're saying and how they're saying and how they're making others feel and, like, the emotions. When you present people with how others are feeling or how you're feeling and you express how you're feeling verbally, it kind of resets the conversation in the situation, right?
Isabella: Mm-hmm. For example, like my husband, he's in a store by himself and he gets followed around a store. He's in the store with me and nobody bothers him.
Bryan: Does that still happen to your husband?
Isabella: Yeah. He was in a fancy furniture store a few months ago. And I have gone to a fancy furniture store with him and, nothing. Like, the people came in. They're like, "What can we help you with?" And then he went by himself to pick up stuff and he was just waiting and walking around and the salesperson was following him around. And, to me, like, that makes me so upset because it's like you don't even know this person.
Bryan: There's a judgment and a stereotype. Right.
Isabella: So when we went back into the store, I said, "I want to come with you. I want to, like, see what's going on."
Bryan: Experience that.
Isabella: And I just expressed my feelings. I'm like, "You're making me feel very upset that you're following my husband around for no reason." And the salesperson is like, "Oh." He just like snapped out of it and he was in a bit of a shock. He's like, "I didn't even realize that I was doing that," or, "I didn't realize that my actions were making you uncomfortable," right? And he could have been doing it intentionally or maybe not. Like, we don't know, right? But I find that once you just speak about how you're feeling about certain things, most of the times people just kind of reset a little bit and be like, "Oh, I didn't even realize that that was what I was doing.
Bryan: First, I'm really sorry to hear that that has happened to both you and your husband and that he's experienced that. Because, one, he shouldn't experience that. I know plenty of people who have experienced that. But communicating with that salesperson is definitely the first step. And I think a lot of people now on minority groups do challenge whoever is following them, and that's good...
I think that's the right thing to do and say, "Hey, why are you following me?" The hope is that that person, as you said, resets, first apologizes, and then, you know, treats you like a human being. Because none of us deserve to feel that way. We don't deserve to walk into a space feel uncomfortable. And hopefully, as we move forward, that's exactly where we're heading and trending.
Isabella: Yeah. From that perspective, I think I personally faced it. It's been more like my husband and my dad who have faced more of that type of discrimination.
Bryan: I had a similar conversation with Yanet Martinez, who's here in the Los Angeles office, and she's Latina. And I wanted to ask this question because I'm Latino, but I'm lighter-skinned, gay in the construction industry, and I've always felt like sometimes uncomfortable. But being Latinos, there are a lot of Latinos on-site and being project managers. Have you ever faced a situation where you're on-site and you faced or saw anyone being discriminated against because of, like, how they, you know, just because of their minority group, and have you ever confronted that challenge? It's just an interesting question because I always feel bad when I see fellow Latinos. And I'm just like, "No, I'm here with you. I'm your partner."
Isabella: I've been on a lot of construction sites where there's a lot of Latinos. I was on a project recently. It was a big project and there was a lot of Latinos on site. And they didn't realize that I was Latino and that I spoke Spanish, right? But I always heard them speaking Spanish and things like that. And one time, I overheard a conversation where they were scared to ask to leave early because they had to go to an appointment.
So they were speaking in Spanish and they were scared because they don't want to get fired, they don't want to break the rules, all these things, right? And for me, it was more advocating for them. So I stepped in and I said, "You guys don't have to worry about this. If you guys are performing, you can ask to leave early for an appointment. Like, you don't have to fear your job security because of that," right?
And they didn't speak English. So when they heard me speak Spanish, A, they were surprised. They were like, "Oh, we didn't know you speak Spanish". And B, "Thanks for, like, explaining this to us." So not that I've seen them being mistreated, but more so that just because they don't feel as comfortable with their situation. I feel like there's a bit of fear, especially when it's recent immigrants or people that are uncomfortable in the new environment.
They have a little bit of fear that they don't want to, you know, ruffle any feathers or say anything that might get them in trouble. And again, it's just more about education and speaking up for them and telling them. And vice versa, like, letting their superiors know how they're feeling so that both feelings can calm down.
Bryan: Right. That's a really great point because I feel that when I'm on-site, I'm always there to be an advocate for others, Latinos, and I speak four languages. So I try to, you know, let everyone know, especially in this day and age that, "We're on your side. I'm here to help. I'm here to just communicate relation." I've heard conversations about job security and how to address that with project managers who tend to be white men or and who don't speak Spanish. So I'm happy that we're able to bridge the conversation, quite literally, with our identities and languages.
Bryan: Isabella, have you ever faced discrimination from your employer or people in positions of power because of how you identify as a Latina woman?
Isabella: Not so much in terms of how I identify as a Latina woman, but in terms of inequality when it comes to people that have money versus those that don't. I grew up in Mexico, like we discussed. And when we moved to Canada, we didn't have a lot of money. So my parents were the immigrants working three jobs just to put food on the table and working hard night shifts and things like that. So when we lived in Mexico, we had a house, we had a car. It wasn't a mansion, but it was ours, right?
And then when we moved to Canada, we didn't have any of that. When we moved to this small town, we were able to get assistance. So we moved into, like, community housing, social housing. And it was a nice townhouse. And I was like, "Oh, this is great. We're living in a townhouse. And it's a nice, three-bedroom townhouse." My siblings and I thought it was great. And then we went to school and we were made fun of for living in community housing, for being poor.
For me, that was a very first taste of discrimination, maybe not so much position of power, but people that had the knee that we didn't have. And that's more what I witnessed growing up as a kid, as a teenager, is like not having money. You know, you don't have the money to buy the clothes. You don't have the money to go to the concerts or play certain activities or certain things. That, for me, was my first big kind of aha moment where I was like, "Oh, we don't have money and society doesn't think that's a good thing. The fact that we're poor is a negative."
And, to me, my parents are hardworking. My mom had three jobs. So for me, I thought it was like, "My mom is working so hard. She's so great. And they're working so hard to put food on the table and to give us a better education. And they could have gone back home, but they chose not to. They chose to stay here." It's interesting, as a grown-up, obviously, like went to school, went to university, got a career, and trying to make sure that I had the means. And that was a big goal of mine because game poor pushed me to understand you have to have a job with security and benefits and things like that.
Bryan: Your story, I'm being serious when I say this, that it makes me, like, emotional because I feel like what you're describing is how my family has been. And socioeconomic status is definitely... It's a huge issue here in America. Also, as you say, in Canada. I'm intrigued to know how has that affected you in the long run now that you're a vice president at our firm. So I'm just interested to know how it has affected you at your position now.
Isabella: The hard-working aspect, it's been like the number one thing. You work hard for what you want. If you want a certain type of education, you got to work for it. My mom especially, she was always like, "Nothing is gonna come easy to you because we don't have the means. We don't have the money. So you're going to have to work extra hard to get that scholarship. You're gonna have to work extra hard to, you know, stay with that scholarship in school to get grants. You're going to have to figure out a way to get through school, through university."
Because I went to architecture, and it was a seven-year program. So my mom is like, "How are we going to afford a seven-year program? There's no way." So luckily, in Canada, there's a lot of government support with loans and things like that. But I also picked a school that had a paid internship program. So every four months, I got to work and it was paid. For the seven years, I worked and saved and paid for school and things like that. And when I came out of school, I said, "Okay, I want to enjoy my career but I also want to be comfortable and I want to help my mom and my siblings so they can also finish their careers and move together."
So the circumstances just pushed me to work hard but it also didn't actually push me to get things in terms of, like, material things. Because after a certain point, you realize the material stuff that everybody has doesn't really get you places. Like, it doesn't really matter. It's about the work ethic. You can have parents that are really well off and have a lot of money, but if they don't instill the work ethic in you, it's gonna get you anywhere.
Or if they don't instill the values in you to be respectful and to listen to people and communicate well, like, it's not really going to get you anywhere. And I feel like in our profession, that communication, sometimes we have like 20, 30 people around the table and figuring out how to navigate that conversation so that everyone is heard. Those are skills that money doesn't really buy.
Bryan: We can't buy. You cannot buy those skills. Exactly.
Isabella: So I think growing up without money made me a problem solver, figuring out different options to get to my next step to get to where I wanted to go next. And I think that led me to this profession because, like, that's what we do all day long, right, is just solve.
Bryan: We're solving problems and facilitating issues. Yeah, exactly, exactly. We're also dealing with a lot of money.
Isabella: So I think that, more than anything, there's always a solution. Something is not going to come easy to you, but figure it out. Figure out what the solution is or what the next step is going to be or how you're going to get to the end result.
Bryan: Absolutely. I do want to know, because of how you just delve into socioeconomic status, have you ever had to adapt in the workplace, you talk about education and growing up, but in the workplace, because of how you identified growing up?
Isabella: There's a lot of junior people that I've mentored along the way and some of them have come from a similar background as me. And they're nervous about certain things. A couple of times, I've had interns where they just didn't have a credit card or they didn't have enough money because they're paying off their student loans and things like that. And just having a frank conversation with them to be like, "You know what, it's okay. You don't have to explain your situation to us. We're here to support. So whatever it is you're facing, let's just talk about it." And we kind of figured those things out.
Bryan: It sounds like you're really a great mentor, Isabella.
Isabella: It's more about understanding the individual circumstances. When it comes to the socioeconomic stuff, you don't know anybody's story or how they grew up or how they came to where they are. I always try to just have open conversations and to say, "If there's something, you know, that you're struggling with, we're not here to judge. It's a professional setting. We're here to be supportive. And if there's something that you need, just talk about it," right?
Bryan: You're leaving yourself open to conversation to understand where they're coming from. And that's honestly the first step.
Isabella: But I think sometimes people think it's embarrassing.
Bryan: And it's not.
Isabella: It's not. When we were poor, I was made to feel embarrassed, embarrassed that I was poor. And then once I grew up, I reflected on it. I'm like, "Why was I embarrassed of my parents being hard working," right? It's such a weird thing that society puts in our heads, that you have to be embarrassed because of it. And it's not something that you wake up and you say, "Oh, I choose to be poor," or, "I choose to be this way," right?
Bryan: That is exactly what happened with me when I was growing up. My dad was a landscaper and my mom was a housekeeper. And I just remember thinking...I grew up in an affluent suburb of Washington, D.C. As I grew up, I was like, "I wish I wasn't Latino or I wish my father wasn't a landscaper or whatnot." But I think to myself now, "My parents did a lot and sacrificed a lot to put food on the table and give us the best education."
And now I'm very proud of what they've done instilled in me. So what you're saying makes complete sense. And there's no room to... People who are listening shouldn't be embarrassed of how they were raised or what their background is because it helps develop character and has developed me, who I am as a person, and also as you, Isabella, so.
Isabella: When I'm mentoring or where I'm in the workforce, that's my number one thing is, like, who are we to judge where you came from or who you are? Go back to having that real talk to say, "This A, B, and C is an issue and let's figure out how to resolve it and how to make you comfortable."
Bryan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what we're trying to achieve here. Why is diversity, equity, and inclusion so important in the workplace? I want to know your thoughts on that?
Isabella: I think it's because if you're gonna preach innovation, you have to be an example of it, right? And how can you be innovative without having diverse everything? Diverse talk, diverse view, diverse personality, diverse people. And how can you be innovative and forward-thinking if you're not including a wide range of opinions and a wide range of background? Everybody has an idea when you're conversing about how to solve an issue. And that idea comes from their background, right? It comes from where they've been and what they've seen. If you don't allow that into your surroundings, into your work environment, to me, it's a bit backwards.
Isabella: If you want a company to, like, follow a manual, write that manual and don't change ever from that manual. But if you want a company to, you know, contribute to the world and contribute to society, you got to be diverse and you got to be open to including those opinions, those backgrounds, those thoughts.
Bryan: Absolutely. And also I think that's why I really enjoy working with MGAC. I think we have so many diverse backgrounds at this company and we all learned a really great perspective, voice, and opinions to our clients in meetings. So I agree with you on that point. As project managers, you know, part of our job is to help our clients develop teams. We're creating equitable spaces and we're creating the books environment. What are some of the ways that the AEC industry can impact change?
Isabella: I think by giving more opportunity, more well-grounded opportunity across the board. And what I mean by that is there's this view of having this org chart, the junior people reporting up to intermediate to senior to the higher up. And I think that idea of the org chart is so backwards. I think it needs to be more a 360 view of a company. And I feel like allowing opinions and thoughts and thinking to come from all levels is good. Understanding what the junior team thinks of the senior team.
I remember being in a performance evaluation kind of session. And I asked for the junior PM on my team to come into my performance evaluation because I wanted to understand what they thought of me, right? Not just what my boss thought of me. But I also want to know am I doing a good job mentoring and working with the junior people? For me, I think it's not so much in terms of levels. I think we just started looking at if we're talking about diversity and inclusion, what does it mean from a 360 perspective? And that's just...
Bryan: It's not a static linear item. Right. And I think that I agree with you. And you were one of the first few people that have talked about performance evaluations and seeking who is at a higher, I would say, "position," right, as a vice president, from your junior staff members. I think I love that idea. And it sounds like you have lent a helping hand and also have been such a great mentor and you're also very self-aware. And I think that awareness also lends to inclusivity, equality, which is what we are seeking as well in our jobs and with our clients. So that's a great perspective.
Isabella: Understanding what the team as a whole thing is so important. And, again, it shouldn't be about status. It shouldn't be about what you have or what level you sit at. It should be just about respecting everybody's opinion. And sometimes it might not be great but at least you hear it.
Bryan: You take it in. Yes, exactly.
Isabella: You take it in, you know? And you peel away at it. And I think we have to do a little bit more of that.
Bryan: That actually leads me into my next question, which is such a great segue. What advice would you give younger staff members or younger people who are looking to be or have a career in the AEC industry?
Isabella: I always believe that you have to immerse yourself into different aspects of our profession. When I was younger, my grandma used to be like, "Okay, go mop the floor." And one day I said to her, "Grandma, one day I'm going to have money then I'm going to have a housekeeper."
Bryan: What did she say to that, your Abuela? That's your abuelita?
Isabella: And she's like, "But if you don't know how to mop the floor, how are you going to know that she did a good job or not? She might use a broom. She might use the towel that you use to, like, wrap your tortillas in."
Isabella: Yeah. She's like, "How are you going to know that she did a good job if you don't know what it means to do a good job?" So I always think of that. And when I talk to younger people, I say, "You have to learn what it means to do part A of a project, part B of a project, part C of a project. You can't just rely on others to do those things, at least at the beginning when you're learning. Because you're never going to understand what they're giving you if it's going to be, like, a value or if it's going to meet the client's expectations if you don't know how to do it."
So I'm not saying you have to be like a specialist and an expert at it but you do need to figure out how to mop those floors so that you understand what you're getting. You have to have experience and you have to have a well-rounded experience especially in our profession to know that you're getting value from someone else later on down the road.
Bryan: You know, younger people shouldn't feel intimidated or scared to jump into the profession. You're going to meet people like us who are going to be there to help you.
Isabella: Oh, definitely.
Bryan: I'm speaking to Isabella, a Vice President, and, you know, well, I'm more junior. You're surrounding yourself with an environment where we care for our colleagues and we care for your success because your success is everyone's success.
Isabella: Exactly. Yeah. That is a big thing. For me, I always feel like I need to support my team because if they do well then I'm doing well. Whatever it is that they need, I am like, "I will support you with that because it means one less headache for me if you are performing well, right? If you want to take a course or if you want to get experience in a specific area. Let's go for it. Let's do it. I will be there to help you."
Bryan: I love it, Isabella. I want to be on your project team. That's what I want. Go to Canada, go to Toronto. Now I want to know where do you see diversity in our industry in 10 years? How do we normalize the conversation on diversity?
Isabella: It is interesting. I was on a ULI conference yesterday, Urban Land Institute, and there was a woman on there who said, "We need to make a movement. Like we need to stop talking about it and actually create a movement." She was saying, "I'm so tired of the word conversation because it's got to move away from conversation to what's the action plan? How do we move forward?" So I'm hoping that in 10 years, we're not talking about it anymore. We've actioned these things, forcing, like, an industry where there's women and men and it just becomes about the work.
Bryan: Right. Right. And I think where in being as inclusive as possible that the employees in the firm reflect diverse perspectives, diverse backgrounds. We lent our lived-in experiences to our project teams. And at that point, it's a cohesive team environment and that's going to lead to, as you said before, innovation and also the success of the firm.
Isabella: Yeah. I hope that in 10 years we're not talking about how we can be. I hope we just are.
Bryan: You know, I don't know if all our listeners know what the Urban Land Institute is. Was it just a specific diversity forum that you were on?
Isabella: Yeah. It's a committee. One of our vice presidents actually here in Toronto, he was heading the Women's Leadership Initiative there. It's a big institute.
Bryan: I'm happy to hear that they had diversity in a female leadership forum. I think it was a great opportunity for everyone to be involved with. Let's talk about MGAC. How do you think that we should integrate diversity and inclusion here at our firm?
Isabella: I think it's already part of our company. We have so many diverse backgrounds and diverse perspectives. It's more so about sharing what those backgrounds are. How do you bring A and B together to coexist? And I think we're already there. When I was researching the company and I was trying to decide whether to be part of it or not, I was so happy. I had the biggest smile on my face because I saw so many women on the website...
Bryan: I love that. Yeah.
Isabella: ...as like VPs and managing directors. Because usually, in our industry, you see a lot of males leading the company. And just the different backgrounds and perspectives that we bring from the different offices. We could always do more. How do we celebrate it now, right? Like, how do we...?
Bryan: I love that. That's such a great way. That's a great aha moment for me, Isabella. How do we celebrate DEI in our own company? It's interesting because I've been focused on integrating it or the idea of, like, baking this into our DNA. But I like, moving forward, that we are celebrating our experiences. Isabella, that's a great way to think about it. I love that. And also, you're in a position of leadership. And I think that's amazing that you've been able to lend your stories and lend your experiences and be in this firm at your level. And I think that is a reflection of how MGAC is moving forward in the industry and being at the forefront of what diversity and equality and inclusion is like. So I love that you're saying we should celebrate it and continue to celebrate it.
Isabella: We are all so lucky to be in this company where the leadership is focused on making it better. It's not just a static thing. They want to embed it into your every day with us. I'm hopeful that we're going to be actioning items and celebration can be an action, right?
Bryan: Right. I think MGAC isn't trying to tokenize anyone. Kudos to our founder, Mark Anderson, for helping establish this forum and having us speak about our backgrounds and experiences. So I totally understand where you're coming from, Isabella, and I love that. I'm going to move forward with the celebration. For some of our coworkers who have never faced discrimination, how can they be an ally to those who come from diverse backgrounds? What would your advice be to them?
Isabella: It comes just with having an open mind and educating ourselves. We obviously don't know everything there is to know. But I think being receptive, being engaged, and being open in terms of the ability to embrace somebody's story. Just allowing yourself to say, "I'm here. Whatever we need to discuss or let's talk about it without judgment." We're great at talking, right, but we're not so good at listening. I don't know why. Maybe it's a scientific thing, you know, one thing develops more than the other. And I do that too. Sometimes when you're in a conversation, your mind is thinking about what you're going to say next as opposed to really just focusing on what the person is saying, focusing and tuning in into people's stories. I think that's the number one thing.
Bryan: Absolutely. I mean, I understand that. You hit the nail on the head. It's about embracing each other. It's about being in the now, listening to the person you're speaking to. That's how you engage with them. I've had such a great opportunity engaging with you today, listening to your story. And I'm embracing you.
Isabella: Thank you.
Bryan: You have been such a pleasure to speak to, Isabella. And I hope that our listeners resonate with what you've experienced growing up from being a Latina female and also your stories about socioeconomic status. Because that's something that we haven't really talked about. It's still something that affects people today. And we're here to understand each other's backgrounds. So I really thank you for sharing those experiences, Isabella.
Isabella: Thank you. It's been great. It's just fun. I think you're doing a fantastic job by the way.
Bryan: Thank you so much. You've been such a pleasure. And to all our listeners, thank you for listening to this episode of "MGAC Inner Voices." I hope that you guys come back next month and check out our next episode. Thanks, everyone.