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Transcript

Bryan: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to "MGAC Inner Voices," a podcast digging into the issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the architecture, engineering, and construction industry. You know, I want to preface this podcast as always by letting everyone know that we're not experts in all things diversity, equity, and inclusion. We just want to share our stories, our lived experiences, and how we can create a better outcome for all of us in the AEC industry and beyond. I'm Bryan Gamez, your host. I'm a project manager at MGAC in Los Angeles.

Today, I have the privilege of talking with the wonderful Jessie Cortez. She is the talent acquisition coordinator here at MGAC. So I'm very excited to dive into the talent acquisition pool of the industry and how diversity, equity, and inclusion is impacted by talent acquisition and what you see in the market. Jessie, you're also a Latina. You bring such a great perspective. So I feel like I've already done the introduction, but please, thank you for being here. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself and introduce yourself to our guests?

Jessie: Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here. As you mentioned, I am Jessie Cortez. I am the talent acquisition coordinator with MGAC. I am based out of the L.A. office. I have been born and raised in L.A., which is really awesome for me. I have been in this industry with MGAC going on five years at the end of this year. So super exciting for that.

Bryan: Congrats.

Jessie: Yeah, thank you. I am Latina. My dad is Latino and I grew up in L.A. Again, very diverse neighborhoods. I'm super excited to take part in this.

Bryan: You know, I'm Latino as well. So I just like sharing that experience with everyone else. At MGAC, you know, being global DEI co-chair, we also did a roundtable and it was just really nice to hear your story, how you're reconnecting with your Mexican heritage. Specifically, you're from Mexico. I'm Guatemalan. So still Latinos, but different heritages and different cultures, albeit there are similarities.

But I want to just jump in and talk about how you got to MGAC because you have a really interesting story, Jessie. This wasn't something that you just jumped into. Let's talk about how you began and how you got to MGAC, and then we'll go dive into just kind of more about equity and inclusion and diversity. But take me back to college, or actually take me back to before college.

Jessie: Yeah, so I actually did not go to college. I did finish high school. I actually went to Venice High School, which is a really popular high school in the L.A. area. Graduated high school and got right into working right away. I got into the hospitality industry actually and spent a lot of time doing a lot of different hospitality jobs. From there, I did say, like, you know, I did not want to stick with that. I want to get a little bit more stability going, got into a few office jobs. The one prior to this job was really great for me. It got my foot in the door.

I office managed for Larry Flynt Publications for a couple of years. And then I found MGAC and I started off actually with MGAC as an office coordinator/manager and then actually voiced my, you know, little opinion like, "Well, I think I have more to bring to the table." So I transitioned over to the recruiting side of things, and I was lucky enough to get mentored and brought onto this team, and I'm super grateful to be here.

Bryan: By the way, it's not a little opinion. It's your opinion. You know, I hear people say that and I always tell people, like, "No, it's not a little opinion. People say it in that manner, but I want you to know that you're valued and you matter." So it's just interesting because you've also told me that you had to overcome a lot to get to MGAC and you've had negative experiences that have almost diminished your capacity or even diminished how you feel about yourself and your self-worth because of a lack of a college degree. Whoever does that to someone needs to be told not to do that.

Jessie: Yeah.

Bryan: I'm sorry you experienced that, but you've obviously overcome it. Do you want to talk about that experience? Because you do have a lot to offer. I mean, you are a valued member of our team.

Jessie: You know, first glance, people are like, "Oh, you don't have a college degree." Like, "How are you doing what you're doing?" And recruiting specifically is a very big people skill and that's not something that you can learn just in college. That's something that you develop over the years and just, you know, using personal judgment. I think it also speaks a lot to my character. You see me in the office every day. I'm very vocal about how I'm feeling. I've learned to advocate for myself in a healthy way, and in this industry, I think it's really important, and having that to connect with candidates is honestly just something that can't be taught.

So there's that, and I'll never forget this. One of the biggest things that impacted me is, you know, I had somebody tell me, "Oh, well, you're not educated so you don't qualify to be on my team." And it sat with me. It still sits with me. There's still time. I take that in and I'm like, "Gosh, is this person right? Do I not qualify just because I'm not college-educated? And then I think about it and I'm like, "I'm doing pretty, you know, dang good for where I am." And I've made a name for myself and everything that I've gotten is from working really hard to get here. And I just have to remember that. It's really easy to let the outer voices get into yourself and just kind of really affect your day-to-day. So I appreciate your words and I definitely know that I worked really hard to get here and I'll continue to do that.

Bryan: I want you to know that I'm proud of you for sticking to your guns and also being your self-advocate because I'm going to make an association with a hobby outside of work. I'm a bodybuilder. I have a competition coming up. One of the things about being an athlete is drowning out external voices because there's going to be so many people that want to pull you down, Jessie, a lot of people. And I'm just so proud of you for not taking that in because you are a hard worker. You are a valued team member. And there are so many people that have gone to their positions, high positions, executive positions without a college degree. So that was a very unfair statement for them to make. And I applaud you for how you're handling it and having this outlook.

So that's one example of a microaggression that you've had in an office setting. But I also know that you've had bad experiences at other jobs. You wanted to go into how you've overcome those experiences and how you process those experiences being a Latina.
Jessie: Yeah. So I actually bartend part-time as well. I do this on the weekends. I call it my little fun job. Kiss me, hip, and young. Yeah, there are little, like, microaggressions that you definitely see. I'm actually one of the managers on duty there. So with that comes a lot of responsibility of having to deal with customers, and not just customers, your fellow colleagues that don't really want to respect you just because you're younger than them or you're older than them or you're a woman. Like, there are so many different situations.
One of the biggest ones I can talk about most recently was I was telling somebody, "Well, you can't do this during work hours." And his response to me was, "Well, you're a woman. You can't talk to me like that." And I was completely taken back because if anyone that knows me, I'm pretty even killed. I don't really let things get to me in a sense of like, well, you're a man. So I'm going to talk to you like this, or you're a woman so I'll talk to you a different way. I treat everyone equally.

So I did share that. That's not an accurate opinion that you are sharing with me. This is just, you know, house rules. This is what we are going to do. If you feel any other different opinions or you want to share with the higher management, feel free to. I did escalate it as well to higher management. Just let them know how disrespectful the situation was, how undermining it was. And nothing came from that other than just being told, "Well, sorry, that's just how this person is," which I feel like often happens.

A lot of times these situations get overlooked, especially in the hospitality industry, because, you know, not everyone really thinks the way that we think. Unless you're going through a situation, you don't really know how to handle that. And unfortunately, some people aren't great at de-escalating and some people aren't great at sympathizing and realizing that there's more to the blind eye than just making money and having a business.

Bryan: It's a toxic workplace environment is what you're talking about.

Jessie: Yeah.

Bryan: It's a person above you that clearly should not be in a position of management if they don't know how to handle people because that's so disrespectful. Your gender has nothing to do with how you're managing your position. Also, the folks you're working with. It sounds like you really kept your cool, Jessie.

Jessie: Yeah, it's definitely something that I often find myself doing. But I think that also comes back to recruiting because, you know, sometimes we talk to candidates and there's cultural differences when you talk to people. So being able to keep your cool and being able to understand and explain thoroughly. It's just like it's a full-circle moment. I've really learned how to kind of handle any situation thrown at me, and I really appreciate. Like, this is where I am at right now.

Bryan: And it's made you a more professional person.

Jessie: Yes.

Bryan: You're very professional in the workplace, and granted, that person needs a lot of help. But whatever happened to that person?
Jessie: They are no longer with the company actually. I would say probably about six months later, bigger situations actually arose and they got let go, which is really interesting because these little minor things that might not have been a big deal to higher management, they all kind of came to a crash and they got let go from the company.

Bryan: Well, I'm glad to hear that you're no longer dealing with that.

Jessie: Yeah.

Bryan: You said something with me previously that you don't think this behavior would never happen to a man, correct?

Jessie: Right.

Bryan: You know, do you want to elaborate on that?

Jessie: Yeah. I mean, I've seen it in my day-to-day just where men have a certain level of, I would say respect, but I don't even think it's respect. I think that the people who are treating me differently because I'm a woman lack so much respect that they don't even realize. Like, they would never talk to a man like that because they know that they're a little bit more equal in, like, playing both. A man talking to a man in that tone, oh, well, a man's going to talk back to me like that, but a woman, what are we going to do? Well, we can talk to you equally. However, if you're not receptive to that, you're never going to think that we're equal, and I think that that's a huge part of the problem.

Bryan: How do you handle sexism in the workplace then?

Jessie: I think making the best out of not-so-great situations. I smile a lot. I take it in. I reflect a little bit and I say, "You know what? This has nothing to do with me. All I can do is treat every single person the same way." You can talk to me a certain way, but I'm going to still treat you the exact same way I would if you didn't just make that comment to me. And I think that that is more powerful than how, like, closed-minded people can be.

Bryan: I'm sorry that you've dealt with this. It's to this day too, right, Jessie?

Jessie: Yeah.

Bryan: I feel like you still face sexism, which is so awful for me to hear that. Obviously, I will stand up for you.

Jessie: Yeah.

Bryan: Clearly, I am that type of person that will say something because I think a lot of these men have never heard it, right? They're never told in a professional way. I say something, the culture is more important than whatever this person's opinion is. How has this impacted your career and, as a recruiter too in talent acquisition, how do you support other women? Are you more empathetic when candidates come to you? How do you approach these situations? Are you asked these questions? You know, how do you handle this and, like, how has it changed your perspective? This is a very interesting conversation.

Jessie: Something I learned from somebody who mentored me as I kind of transitioned my career, the woman who mentored me always would give me, like, constructive criticism in a healthy way, and then she would always kind of ask, "How do you feel about that?" She would always follow it up with, like, "How are you doing? And that's something that I've taken to my day-to-day.

So if there's a situation that's a little uncomfortable and you might not agree with a certain comment that somebody says, or, you know, you see a coworker who you can tell is, like, a little bit bothered by something, and I just always make sure to ask people, like, "How are you doing?" And it's not just, like, a surface question. It's not just a, "Well, how are you doing? Your projects are busy." Like, "I hope that everything's good." No, I'm literally like, "How are you doing?" And they can tell...

Bryan: You're being genuine.

Jessie: Yeah. They can tell I'm being genuine.

Bryan: And authentic.

Jessie: Right. And they kind of just feel like it's a safe space. And I'm so happy that I can be that first, you know, with certain people and just be that for the L.A. office, you know, and the glue that kind of keeps these office events going and whatnot. So I think that it changed my career in the aspect of I learned to slow down a little bit and really process what's going on around me, being a little bit more aware, being genuine, and not just treating everyone like we're coworkers. Yeah, we are coworkers, but we are also human beings. We deserve to be, you know, cared for at a certain capacity. I'm not going to get into detail, and this is...You know, I'm supporting the bodybuilding. We are supporting that.

Bryan: Thank you.

Jessie: I think that that's been really helpful. And I think that just having a great mentor and somebody you can lean on and also a great team, having a great team and a company that you feel, like, supports you and you feel comfortable advocating for the things that you believe in is really important.

Bryan: Yeah, and I think we are able to do that here. We hosted a DEI roundtable for the West Coast and the East Coast. And I think it allowed us to see each other at a human level, not just as a coworker level, right? We understood more people's backgrounds, more of their personalities. And I agree with you. I think that culture is important. It also helps create a rapport between everyone. And I think that we're still creating that road map for the company, but I agree with you. I'm happy that you've been such a positive light in the L.A. office.

Not every office experience is going to be the same. Have you ever had an environment where you didn't feel safe? And what steps did you take to remove those obstacles?

Jessie: I think that my last employer prior to MGAC, there were situations where nobody wanted to speak up about anything. And there were just times where we knew we weren't getting treated correct and we knew that things were wrong. But what were we going to do? We didn't feel like we had a voice and we didn't feel like we had the support.

So I kind of just learned to say, "Well, we can't change certain situations, but we can change just how we act and how we react." That was when I was office managing and I had a team and I just kind of got my team all to be on the same page. And we made the best out of that situation, which I really appreciated because it made my time there great outside of the toxic work culture.

And then ultimately, I ended up deciding to leave because I just didn't think it was enough for my life in that moment. I wanted to grow and I wanted to see what was out there. And that's when I came across MGAC and just finding a company culture that really appreciates you and that's constantly growing, which I really appreciate, especially like having this podcast. And when I talk to people that I'm recruiting, I bring this up and there's people who brought it up before, like, "Oh, I follow MGAC's page. I've seen the podcast. I really appreciate the company culture."

Bryan: It's nice to hear.

Jessie: Yeah, it's really great.

Bryan: When we started this podcast, I never thought it would have the reach it did. And we still really just want to share people's experiences. Do you feel that you can be your true authentic self at MGAC? And is MGAC taking the right steps for a better workplace culture?

Jessie: Yes, I definitely think so. I am truly my authentic self every day in the office.

Bryan: Yay, I know you are. I think both of us are.

Jessie: Yes, I am who I am. I wear my heart on my sleeve. If I'm having a rough day, you can literally see it on my face. I'm just not as smiley and as bubbly or talkative, but I still am there to show up and to be there for everybody.

Bryan: You really are.

Jessie: And I definitely think that MGAC, especially with these roundtables that you've been coordinating, that was such a great experience to take part in that and kind of learning a little bit more about coworkers I might not have known a lot about. And it kind of gives you the reasoning behind who they are and how they've gotten here. And it's just such a good outlook. And if anybody has any ideas or they're in a company and they're listening to this podcast and like, "What can I do?" I highly suggest having, like, a roundtable like that. It was just really informative and beneficial for us.

Bryan: I love that. Well, I hope companies do that. I don't want people caught up on the acronym of DEI. I think it's about more of the lived experiences and sharing than how do we help push everyone to the same end goal in terms of equity and inclusivity. That includes everyone in the entire spectrum, people with disabilities, genders, sexuality, and all that. So I appreciate what you're saying. Let's transition into the topic of the workplace. Have you ever had to adapt yourself in the workplace? What does that look like from your lens?

Jessie: Yeah, I think that I have definitely had to learn how to adapt myself. Being an office manager specifically, there's a lot of executives and, you know, higher-ups that you'll be able to interact with and talk to. And you need to adapt to not be so reactive because that is a huge thing in the workplace. So I've learned how to kind of adapt my personality a little bit in the sense of, "Okay, well, this person likes things done this way. Don't take it so personal. I know that they don't mean any harm towards me. That's just who they are. That's how they communicate. And that's totally fine." So I've definitely had to learn how to adapt to that. And I think that just working on my reactiveness, which is something that comes with the age personally for me, I could say, has really helped me in my career.

Bryan: I think whenever I speak to you and your experiences, I don't think that I ever think of you in any way that's not professional, Jessie. So I applaud you again and commend you for that. We did talk about a time when you had issues with networking events or career fairs. What happened?

Jessie: Career fairs. I've done two now with this company specifically. And it's interesting because I've always taken a couple of people from the office with me, specifically on the project management side, to kind of give their experience. And it's something that I've noticed. These students always go to the man that I bring with me. And I think that's so interesting because I was typically the one out there smiling and, "Oh, hey, have you heard of MGAC?"

And I was trying to engage, but I just noticed they gravitate towards the men. And I don't know what it is other than a little bit of sexism. They see a man and they see a woman and they automatically just want to talk to the man because they're successful. And, you know, they're usually male students who do that, but they don't really know our background.

Bryan: That's interesting. This segues into the question of, like, the greater big picture of this type of behavior. What do you think it is?

Jessie: I definitely think it's just the lack of awareness to the blind eye. They just don't know what we have to bring to the table. You could put yourself and myself next to each other and they wouldn't know that, well, she's in recruiting and he's in, you know, project management. Like, how would you know that? You're just going to assume because you see a man and a woman that automatically the man is more successful. And I think that's something that we see in our day-to-day lives.

Bryan: I think people need to have more leadership and need to be mentors and advocates so that that history or that culture changes. Moving into advantages of diversity and inclusivity in the workplace. What does it bring to the table? And what have you seen with candidates when they're applying to MGAC, and the hiring process? What does that look like now?

Jessie: I definitely think that something that comes up in a lot of conversations I have with candidates is they always bring up how important company culture is to them, and team environment, which I think is really great. And then again, it ties back into DEI and provides the value that we bring to the table. And then I always just direct them towards the MGAC website. And then they see like, oh, well, there's actually executive team and there's women and men on that team, which is really great to see. I think that having women on the executive team means a lot, not only to me but just company culture in general. Having that diversity is so important.

Bryan: I mean, it provides a unique perspective. It also helps underscore and emphasize the importance of having a diverse team at MGAC, right? I love that we have women on the executive board. We do have more that are being added as well. So I think we really provide that visibility. I one day hope that there will be a queer Latino somewhere out there, but I'm just going to manifest that and also work very hard for myself to do that. How about the hiring process, though, Jessie? How does that look like with DEI?

Jessie: So we typically start off with, like, a screen. We do a phone screen. This has no video to it at all. You just kind of get to know the candidate. You kind of get a feel for them. If they're a great candidate, you submit them forward. From there, we do highly encourage team interviews, which is really great, specifically because you get a feel for the team. You get a little bit more comfortable. And then on a lot of our teams, there's a ton of diversity. So having different people interviewing this one candidate speaks volumes and also shows that, like, as MGAC as a whole, we really care about our candidates and we're taking the time to interview you.

Bryan: And I think we also do a really good job of making sure that it's the right fit. Right.

Jessie: Absolutely.

Bryan: So that's something that we truly do value. Moving into the industry as a whole, we talk about DEI and we talk about the initiatives we have internally. But I like to ask this question, where do you see the industry in a decade? Where do you see yourself? And any last words that you would like to give people?

Jessie: Hopefully, in 10 years from now, let's say, I see myself just further in my career in the recruiting aspect. I really enjoy what I'm doing. I really can bring my own insight when I'm talking to the candidates. I can speak about my personal career growth I've had within MGAC and just my personal career growth in general and how far I've come. So I really would like to see myself to just further my career, hopefully, with MGAC.

And then I think that as far as just an industry as a whole, I really just hope that we keep taking strides forward. I feel like the last couple of years specifically, there's been so much more diversity happening and people actually advocating for themselves saying, "Well, you know, I'm a woman, I want to be on the executive team. How do I get there?" And they get there. And that's huge. So I hope that we can still continue that and just have the support. And I think that we're on the right track. So I hope that just continues to grow further.

Bryan: Yeah, I think that's really important to state and being your own advocate, speaking and communicating those thoughts to your superiors and your supervisors, because I've seen this a lot. And we even talked about this in a roundtable. We see that sometimes there's a communication gap between older and younger generations. And the younger generations always have a drive. You and I have an ambitious drive. And I think that in 10 years' time, I hope that there's just, like, a seamless integration of values rooted with DEI. And again, that has to start with self-advocating. So I do that. You do that. And you're such a great example, especially with you being on the talent acquisition side, Jessie.

Jessie: Yeah, thank you. My biggest thought and advice I can give anybody is advocate for yourself because nobody can advocate for yourself as well as you can. I've personally seen a lot of reward from that, and I've seen a lot of struggle as well. It's not going to be easy. But advocating for myself has gotten me to where I am. And we actually just had our interns finishing up this summer's internship with us. And that was my biggest piece of advice. Advocate for yourself in this industry, because that's how you're going to get somewhere. If you don't speak up, if you don't share what you're looking for, if you don't share your goals, you'll have a hard time getting there.

Bryan: Yeah, I 100% agree. That's something that I learned years ago. And I'm happy that you're also internalizing that and sharing that with everyone. Because it's true, I think, as minorities, sometimes we feel like we're overlooked. I have so many friends and girlfriends, especially in another industries where they feel like they're overlooked because there's a man or whatever. And it's awful. And I think at those points, I tell my friends, "You have to speak up."

But of course, you have to weigh the pros and cons. And is it worth fighting the fight? Me, I think it is, especially when it comes to compensation. You are driving a culture of change. You are creating a workplace that is going to be, like I said, rooted in deep values of DEI and, hopefully, creating a space for everyone to thrive, for everyone to be successful. Right. No one's trying to push someone else out of a job, you know, we're just trying to get to that position.

Well, Jessie, I'm so happy that I had you on this podcast to talk about talent acquisition, the recruiting process, your path to MGAC, those difficult experiences that you face, which I'm so sorry, but if that ever happens, you let me know.
Jessie: Definitely know I have an advocate in the office.

Bryan: Thank you, Jessie.

Jessie: Yeah. Thanks, Bryan.

Bryan: Thank you for listening to this episode of "MGAC Inner Voices." Check back in a few weeks for our next one. Thanks, everyone.